Should the BBC be privatised?

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hexhome
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by hexhome »

I haven't read every post so forgive me if I am repeating. I am a TV Broadcast Engineer. The issue I have not seen raised is the terrestrial distribution network. It would be possible to finance this entirely privately but the money would come out of our pockets eventually.
Funding of TV by advertising is reducing, there is now increased competition for that money. All TV production has suffered funding reduction.
None of this is necessarily bad, but the landscape would be changed dramatically without the cost of competing with the BBC for viewers.
I believe that without an publicly funded BBC, the style and quality of program would change to a commercially led product.
Incidentally, I work in the independent sector.
Psamathe
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote:...[BBC] Getting rid of it would be removing one of the things that make me feel good about the land I live in. Any party that brought that about would never get my vote again.

But we are not talking about "getting rid of it". Just that people who use it's broadcasts pay for it, people who don't use it don't pay for it. and if it is as good as everybody says they they will have loads of subscribers and will do really well. If it isn't then maybe it is not generally regarded as good enough to justify the compulsory subscription anyway.

Ian
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bovlomov
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by bovlomov »

Psamathe wrote:But we are not talking about "getting rid of it". Just that people who use it's broadcasts pay for it, people who don't use it don't pay for it.

I'm not clear how this would work. Would the land and brand be put up for auction, or would the BBC continue to be publicly owned?

Again, I'm not necessarily against these suggestions. My main fear, though, is that broadcasting will suffer a witless revolution and we'll end up worse off than we were before.

To add to the recent analogies on these pages... We may have rejoiced at the demise of the Soviet Union, but we hadn't realised that, while it was declining, murderous gangsters were positioning themselves to asset-strip the country. The new regime would become, in short time, as corrupt as the previous one.
Psamathe
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Psamathe »

bovlomov wrote:
Psamathe wrote:But we are not talking about "getting rid of it". Just that people who use it's broadcasts pay for it, people who don't use it don't pay for it.

I'm not clear how this would work. Would the land and brand be put up for auction, or would the BBC continue to be publicly owned?

Again, I'm not necessarily against these suggestions. My main fear, though, is that broadcasting will suffer a witless revolution and we'll end up worse off than we were before.
....

I would think there are many ways to achieve it. And I'm sure many could come up with better ideas that I could. But, for example, retains it's current status, license fee is scraped, TV broadcasts go encrypted and viewers buy a subscription. If people don't already have boxes that can decrypt then they are not expensive (maybe BBC can provide them at cost or in the same way Sky provide a Sky box free to subscribers). Same sort of basis as other things we can subscribe to. No reason a government organisation cannot provide a subscription based service. There could be all sorts of variations and levels of subscription (e.g. add-ons like iPlayer catch-up). BBC could re-organise it's channels so films and premium content was on one more expensive channel so there would be lower cost subscriptions for e.g. news, local content, One Show, cooking, antiques, etc. whilst the big high profile expensive productions and films were on a higher subscription. Loads of options. If necessary/appropriate then maybe ads could be allowed (we get them anyway) or maybe only between programs. Who knows, but loads of options. And if it is as good as some say then they should have no difficulty getting most people with TVs to subscribe.

Ian
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bovlomov
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by bovlomov »

Psamathe wrote:I would think there are many ways to achieve it.

My question was prompted by some of the (not unreasonable) comments, that the state should have no role in providing news or entertainment.

There seem to be two separate arguments:
1. The state shouldn't be involved in broadcasting
2. The state has no right to charge people for simply owning a television - effectively forcing them to pay for services they may not want.

Your suggestions deal with the second point but not the first.
Psamathe
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Psamathe »

bovlomov wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I would think there are many ways to achieve it.

My question was prompted by some of the (not unreasonable) comments, that the state should have no role in providing news or entertainment.

There seem to be two separate arguments:
1. The state shouldn't be involved in broadcasting
2. The state has no right to charge people for simply owning a television - effectively forcing them to pay for services they may not want.

Your suggestions deal with the second point but not the first.

In my opinion (and I am open to alternatives and changing that opinion) I can't see why the state should be involved in broadcasting, but don't see it as a major issue if it is. I do think the state should be involved in provision of basic utilities (water, electricity, etc.) but don't think broadcasting comes into that type of service.

But I can see aspects of what the BBC does being relevant to provision by "the state", though at arms length and outside political control. I think it reasonable that the state could pay for a basic radio information/news service. The only reason I could see that as useful is that it would provide a current affairs news service outside the control of a few mega wealthy moguls with very vested interests. I could even accept a single channel basic TV service providing the same (i.e. no celebrity salaries, no mega glitzy expensive Saturday night programs, etc.). Could even be a PBS type channel with a more formal 10/15 minute news on the hour. Very cheap (to the point where it would not be cost effective to collect subscriptions).

Ian
Bicycler
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Bicycler »

bovlomov wrote:There seem to be two separate arguments:
1. The state shouldn't be involved in broadcasting
2. The state has no right to charge people for simply owning a television - effectively forcing them to pay for services they may not want.

1. I'm reminded of Yes Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H4E6Ja_cCM There's some truth in it. The stuff that the masses wish to watch could, of course, be provided commercially. The question then is whether the remainder that isn't commercially viable should cease to be produced. If we can understand why other cultural and educational organisations/activities (galleries, museums, libraries, opera, ballet, concerts, plays etc...) warrant government intervention then we should be able to see that a similar case can be made for some intervention in the broadcasting market.

2. If it can legitimately tax our income, legislate to restrict our freedom and dictate how we educate our children, then the ability to put a tax on TV use must surely be within its rights. The fuss about the BBC isn't a question of government power as such (much taxation is spent on things which the average citizen might not choose to pay for if they had the choice), but rather the way it is funded. It is viewed as a subscription service rather than government taxation and expenditure. If the BBC had always been paid from general taxation it wouldn't be anywhere near as controversial. Ring fencing a tax is a guaranteed way of fostering discontent.
hexhome
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by hexhome »

bovlomov wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I would think there are many ways to achieve it.

My question was prompted by some of the (not unreasonable) comments, that the state should have no role in providing news or entertainment.

There seem to be two separate arguments:
1. The state shouldn't be involved in broadcasting
2. The state has no right to charge people for simply owning a television - effectively forcing them to pay for services they may not want.

Your suggestions deal with the second point but not the first.

Just a couple of inputs to these points. The State and the BBC are separated by a Charter. This causes much annoyance to the Government of the day. Charging people for ownership of a TV. Well no, you can have as many as you like. You are charged for the receipt of a data stream. You have a choice, you could just buy a monitor without a receiver of that data stream and not pay a penny. I guess the same argument is used about cars and VED, should the charge be on the fuel?
beardy
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by beardy »

Charging people for ownership of a TV. Well no, you can have as many as you like. You are charged for the receipt of a data stream.


You can almost get away with distorting the truth to that extent but actually you cant.

If it was just the data stream, then those lucky rich people with two (or more) houses would not need a licence for every house, they would just have a personal/family licence. As it is you could carry your TV from house to house but not your licence.

Also charging for the receipt of a data stream implies that that we are talking about their data stream which they have had to transmit (and make content for), in practice you have to pay the BBC to receive streams supplied by their "competitors".

So "being charged for owning a TV" is much nearer to the reality of the truth than your mis-construction of the letter of the regulations is.

The car analogy would hold, if you only wanted cars on your own land and never to be driven on the road
pwa
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by pwa »

beardy wrote:
Charging people for ownership of a TV. Well no, you can have as many as you like. You are charged for the receipt of a data stream.


You can almost get away with distorting the truth to that extent but actually you cant.

If it was just the data stream, then those lucky rich people with two (or more) houses would not need a licence for every house, they would just have a personal/family licence. As it is you could carry your TV from house to house but not your licence.

Also charging for the receipt of a data stream implies that that we are talking about their data stream which they have had to transmit (and make content for), in practice you have to pay the BBC to receive streams supplied by their "competitors".

So "being charged for owning a TV" is much nearer to the reality of the truth than your mis-construction of the letter of the regulations is.

The car analogy would hold, if you only wanted cars on your own land and never to be driven on the road


My argument, which I hope is a simpler one, is that we are effectively charged for what the BBC does to maintain high standards across all the channels, including ITV and Sky. With no BBC the commercial channels would give a much poorer service. You can see that in other countries. You would get more ad breaks, longer ad breaks, and less money spent on programmes. If you watch TV at all you are benefiting from the BBC being there.
Psamathe
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Psamathe »

reohn2 wrote:Pleeze will someone point me to a commercial radio station that can lick the BBC's boots?
...
The BBC ain't perfect,but it's better than the rest,and no adverts! :wink:
Over the last few weeks been seeing/listening to a bit of BBC and the number of ads are staggering. Just listening to a BBC podcast and 1st two minutes was solid ads ie 2 mins before you get to the start of the program you wnated to listen to.

OK, they are not paid commercials but they are ads for stuff you have no interest in. eg Listening to a science podcast program and I have no interest in a "Dear Daughter" podcast (something about what a Mum wishes to tell her daughter about life".

Ads (of any type) are of no interest to me so makes no different if those ads are for perfume, washing powder or other completely different genre broadcast programs.

Ian
toontra
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by toontra »

Psamathe wrote: 16 Mar 2024, 12:09pm Ads (of any type) are of no interest to me so makes no different if those ads are for perfume, washing powder or other completely different genre broadcast programs.
True - and annoying. But with commercial broadcasters you get all this self-promotion stuff plus the paid ads.

On ITV the average length of a programme occupying a half-hour TV slot seems to be around 23/4 minutes. That's a lot of rubbish to have to sit through. The BBC fares a lot better in this respect - just a couple of promos at the start and then unbroken viewing.
Mike Sales
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Mike Sales »

Psamathe wrote: 16 Mar 2024, 12:09pm
reohn2 wrote:Pleeze will someone point me to a commercial radio station that can lick the BBC's boots?
...
The BBC ain't perfect,but it's better than the rest,and no adverts! :wink:
Over the last few weeks been seeing/listening to a bit of BBC and the number of ads are staggering. Just listening to a BBC podcast and 1st two minutes was solid ads ie 2 mins before you get to the start of the program you wnated to listen to.

OK, they are not paid commercials but they are ads for stuff you have no interest in. eg Listening to a science podcast program and I have no interest in a "Dear Daughter" podcast (something about what a Mum wishes to tell her daughter about life".

Ads (of any type) are of no interest to me so makes no different if those ads are for perfume, washing powder or other completely different genre broadcast programs.

Ian
I think there is an essential difference between BBC trailers and commercials on other channels.
I detest commercials: they are telling me lies to extract my money. I hate their weasel wording, skating round the advertising standards law, and their false jollity or whatever tone they choose to adopt to convince me that their product will make life better. They have a large budget for a few moments of airtime, but to me the overall impression is of falsity
In contrast trailers are relatively honest, made by those who made the show, and are just trying to attract you to a particular programme.
Am I mistaken, but it seems to me that the ad breaks on the newer commercial channels are rather longer than those on the older channels?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Psamathe
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by Psamathe »

Mike Sales wrote: 16 Mar 2024, 12:30pm
Psamathe wrote: 16 Mar 2024, 12:09pm
reohn2 wrote:Pleeze will someone point me to a commercial radio station that can lick the BBC's boots?
...
The BBC ain't perfect,but it's better than the rest,and no adverts! :wink:
Over the last few weeks been seeing/listening to a bit of BBC and the number of ads are staggering. Just listening to a BBC podcast and 1st two minutes was solid ads ie 2 mins before you get to the start of the program you wnated to listen to.

OK, they are not paid commercials but they are ads for stuff you have no interest in. eg Listening to a science podcast program and I have no interest in a "Dear Daughter" podcast (something about what a Mum wishes to tell her daughter about life".

Ads (of any type) are of no interest to me so makes no different if those ads are for perfume, washing powder or other completely different genre broadcast programs.

Ian
I think there is an essential difference between BBC trailers and commercials on other channels.
I detest commercials: they are telling me lies to extract my money. I hate their weasel wording, skating round the advertising standards law, and their false jollity or whatever tone they choose to adopt to convince me that their product will make life better. They have a large budget for a few moments of airtime, but to me the overall impression is of falsity
In contrast trailers are relatively honest, made by those who made the show, and are just trying to attract you to a particular programme.
Am I mistaken, but it seems to me that the ad breaks on the newer commercial channels are rather longer than those on the older channels?
To me they are all trying to take my time for something I have no interest in when I have expressed an interest in something unrelated.

So ad for washing powder at start of TV documentary about wildlife is equally irrelevant as an ad for podcast about what somebody wishes to advise their daughter about life at start of podcast about the human genome studies.

Both are an equal irritation I need to act to skip over as I want to ignore them both.

Ian
reohn2
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Re: Should the BBC be privatised?

Post by reohn2 »

I can't add anything mre than what Toontra and Mike Sales have already posted :D
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