My New Bike

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reohn2
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Re: My New Bike

Postby reohn2 » 4 Mar 2016, 10:21am

Dafydd17 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
IME STI's don't wear out and break like Campag units tend to.

I've never used Campag,but find Shimano STI's work very well for me :) .


?????????


If ?????????? means I can't have an opinion on the matter because I've not used Campag Ergos I beg to differ.
On here,admittedly a small sample,if you look back there's a few threads of people asking about repairs to Campag Ergo's so I conclude they break occasionally.
Rarely have I seen a thread on repairing Shimano Road STI's(I'm limiting my comparison to road levers as,Campag only make road levers).
So I conclude Shimano don't break as often,though my experience as I pointed out was of 7/8/and 9sp units,my own use seems to back up my claim,though I believe the 10speed hidden gear cable type do break more often.

Of course the saving grace for Campag is they,or at least they used to,sell spares to repair them,and I have a couple of friends who have needed to repair Ergo's.I also have more friends who have had STI's for years,some,and one in particular who has put many,many miles(in excess of 60K miles) on a pair of Sora 8sp STI's without problem,which seems to mirror my own experience of STI's.

EDIT:- Just to add that I'd say there are far more Shimano units in service world wide than Campag,possibly as much as two or three times as many,that being the case you'd think you'd hear of far more STI breakages,this does seem to be the case.
Last edited by reohn2 on 4 Mar 2016, 10:27am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: My New Bike

Postby Mick F » 4 Mar 2016, 10:22am

Whether STIs don't wear out or break is besides the point IMHO.
It's the brake lever geometry that is poor.

The hinge/pivot is too far down below the hoods for good braking when on the hoods ......... and I have big hands.
Braking is excellent on the drops but I have to try not to wiggle the levers sideways. :lol:

I could have bought a TSR30 from Evans Cycles at a good discount, but the ones they sell are old stock with Campag Veloce 10sp. Not a bad thing of course, but the rear cassette is then limited to 12t. The fact that I can get 10sp down to 11t with Shimano was much better.

Next question:
Can I fit Campag Ergos and still use the Shimano rear mech and cassette?

Yes, I'm sure it can be done with Shimergo(?)
Sounds to me that it would be the Rolls Royce of gear systems.
Probably won't bother for the foreseeable future, but it's an option if these awful STI thingies get up my nose any more. :lol:

BTW, I've just been out for a (short) ride, but came back early due to the hail stones! :cry:
Try again later maybe.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: My New Bike

Postby Mick F » 4 Mar 2016, 10:34am

reohn2 wrote:Thanks for taking the trouble with the fork offset geometry figures,i reckeon the offset is about 50mm or there abouts looking at it,which means it's a similar steering geometry to my Vayas,it explains why it's so easy to ride it no hands.
Just occurred to me. That photograph is not exactly right when you are sitting on the bike.

It's shown unloaded.

The front suspension is set so that when you are onboard, the front ride height is adjusted to make the front suspension linkages parallel to the deck. In the photo, they are elevated.

Therefore, when the bike is loaded, the offset will be longer. However, the offset must vary as you rise and fall over the road's undulations.
Smooth road, and the offest would be longer than illustrated. Not much, but a few millimeters, maybe as much as 1cm.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: My New Bike

Postby reohn2 » 4 Mar 2016, 10:56am

Mick F wrote:Whether STIs don't wear out or break is besides the point IMHO.
It's the brake lever geometry that is poor.

The hinge/pivot is too far down below the hoods for good braking when on the hoods ......... and I have big hands.
Braking is excellent on the drops but I have to try not to wiggle the levers sideways. :lol:

You've never used anything but Campag Ergo's it's only natural you'd find a (big) difference between them and STI's,your comparison isn't even a fair one from less than 100miles of use.
They're different that's a given,if you don't like them fair do's,I've been using STI's for twenty years on tandems and solo's and can't fault them.

I could have bought a TSR30 from Evans Cycles at a good discount, but the ones they sell are old stock with Campag Veloce 10sp. Not a bad thing of course, but the rear cassette is then limited to 12t. The fact that I can get 10sp down to 11t with Shimano was much better.

So you went all Shimano for 1 tooth count on the cassette,when the discount could've bought you a bigger chainring?



Shimergo.... ........ an option if these awful STI thingies get up my nose any more. :lol:

It's a preference of habit,the habit is Ergo's the change is STI's they're just different.
FWIW I bought a bike with 8sp Sora levers,with the little pegs similar to Ergos but the brake lever is used for changing up similar to other STI's,I found them great on the hoods and almost impossible to use from the drops.I think we had a discussion about it at the time.
I swopped them for Kelly's as I found them more ergonomic.
Different strokes for different folks.

It seems fashionable amongst Campagophiles to knock ShimaNO,with some referring to it as Jap crap or seeing it as some kind of later coming imposter to the show,and referring to Campag as Italian Swiss watchlike engineering.
The thing is Shimano is good kit,generally,they have their moments from time to time,and have made some crap over the years,but overwhelmingly it's good kit.
If you can't get along with it,change it otherwise give it a fair chance,may I suggest 1000miles as a good test.
There is another way,you could buy a pair of barend levers,though you'd need to find somewhere to put your RVM.
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reohn2
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Re: My New Bike

Postby reohn2 » 4 Mar 2016, 10:57am

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Thanks for taking the trouble with the fork offset geometry figures,i reckeon the offset is about 50mm or there abouts looking at it,which means it's a similar steering geometry to my Vayas,it explains why it's so easy to ride it no hands.
Just occurred to me. That photograph is not exactly right when you are sitting on the bike.

It's shown unloaded.

The front suspension is set so that when you are onboard, the front ride height is adjusted to make the front suspension linkages parallel to the deck. In the photo, they are elevated.

Therefore, when the bike is loaded, the offset will be longer. However, the offset must vary as you rise and fall over the road's undulations.
Smooth road, and the offest would be longer than illustrated. Not much, but a few millimeters, maybe as much as 1cm.

You're right it will vary though not greatly,5mm(?)
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MGate
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Re: My New Bike

Postby MGate » 4 Mar 2016, 11:05am

The geometry will change when you take your hands off the bars too... less weight on the front.

pete75
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Re: My New Bike

Postby pete75 » 4 Mar 2016, 11:59am

reohn2 wrote:
Dafydd17 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
IME STI's don't wear out and break like Campag units tend to.

I've never used Campag,but find Shimano STI's work very well for me :) .


?????????


If ?????????? means I can't have an opinion on the matter because I've not used Campag Ergos I beg to differ.
On here,admittedly a small sample,if you look back there's a few threads of people asking about repairs to Campag Ergo's so I conclude they break occasionally.
Rarely have I seen a thread on repairing Shimano Road STI's(I'm limiting my comparison to road levers as,Campag only make road levers).
So I conclude Shimano don't break as often,though my experience as I pointed out was of 7/8/and 9sp units,my own use seems to back up my claim,though I believe the 10speed hidden gear cable type do break more often.



This chap here had a 9 speed STI fail ..........

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15114&p=118039&hilit=sti+repair#p118039

Peejay56
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Re: My New Bike

Postby Peejay56 » 4 Mar 2016, 2:06pm

Hi Mick,
The Moulton looks ace - and the same colour as your beloved Mercian? Is the Brooks Pro you've fitted from our get together in Okehampton?

All the best - Pete.

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Mick F
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Re: My New Bike

Postby Mick F » 4 Mar 2016, 2:26pm

reohn2 wrote:So you went all Shimano for 1 tooth count on the cassette,when the discount could've bought you a bigger chainring?
Yes, and I thought of that long and hard .............. for weeks! :shock:

Do the arithmetic.
The wheel/tyre combo is 18.3" in diameter.
Biggest chainwheel I reckon that will fit .......... the font mech is a braze-on ............... will be 62t. You can buy one for £100 from Fudges.
http://fudgescyclestore.com/product/mou ... er_shimano

The Campag Veloce 10sp TSR30 from Evans has a 12t smallest cog. They don't list a TSR30 at the moment as they only get them in every now and again.
That makes the highest gear I could ever hope to get to be 62/12 x 18.3 = 94.5 gear inches.
Standard gearing would only give me 58/12 x 18.3 = 88.5 gear inches.
Here's a photo I took off the Evans site. The bike is identical to mine except for the Campag. Different chainset but same rings 58/48/34. Same wheels, same tyres.
moulton-tsr-30-dbs-2013-folding-bike.jpg




With Shimano, you get an 11t in 10sp ...................... combined with the standard 58t ring.
This gives 58/11 x 18.3 = 96.5 gear inches. ie higher that I could ever get with Campag with a 62t ring.
Going to Spa for instance, I can get a 61t for £72. This will up the gear to 101 gear inches.
Fudges 62t ring for £100 would give me 103 gear inches.
Not really worth the cost, but if I'm feeling flush, I may push the boat out. :D

As for getting used to the STIs, I'm sure I will do. 50miles done so far in the two days. Give it 500miles, and I'll be more used to them and maybe my comments will be more valid. :wink:

Today, I wore winter gloves, and found it difficult finding the release paddles as they are very close to the brake levers. Again, no doubt I'll get use to it.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: My New Bike

Postby reohn2 » 4 Mar 2016, 4:50pm

pete75 wrote:This chap here had a 9 speed STI fail ..........

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15114&p=118039&hilit=sti+repair#p118039


I've been asked about that before by Brucey and described it as me crying before I was hurt.

At the the time Deliquium of this parish had a pair of nearly new 105 STI's for sale(£75 IIRC).

I bought them and on fitting them found,whilst removing the Ultegra levers there to be a single strand broken in the cable,at the nipple(within the lever).Which was causing all the problems(erratic shifting),I'd tried flooding them with sem fliud aerosol grease and it hadn't worked so I'd assumed it was a faulty lever.
Having already stripped the bar tape off and cables out of the Ultegra levers,fitted the 105's.
If I was guilty of anythng it was not reporting back to the forum my findings.

I later fitted those same Ultegra levers to another bike(Thorn Audax Mk3) when building it up and used them for a few years without issue.
So the story is a non story.

Now if you've done stirring it we could get back to Mick's and one or two other's dislike of Shimano STI's,which is merely a difference of opinion seemingly due to user preferences.

I'll repeat so no one's in doubt,STI's are good kit and I've nothing against Campag Ergo's. YVMV.

Could I also remind you,that it was you,not me,who began this unnecessary diversion which was more about how much Mick was enjoying his new bike and not some Shimano v Campag debate you've insisted on continuing,seemingly for your own amusement.

As you were gents :?
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Mick F
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Re: My New Bike

Postby Mick F » 4 Mar 2016, 5:06pm

:lol: :lol:
Not riding tomorrow, so no updates from me on this thread!
Meanwhile, I've washed the beast.

One thing I've noticed, that when in bottom gear, the bottom of the jockey cage is level with the top of the wheel rim. That is about an inch and a half off the ground. :shock:

If I were to be in bottom gear and ride through some mud, or a flood, or on soft grass, the chain would be hitting something rather horrible. :lol:

Maybe the long cage of the Tiagra mech is too long?
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: My New Bike

Postby reohn2 » 4 Mar 2016, 5:10pm

Mick F wrote:.....As for getting used to the STIs, I'm sure I will do. 50miles done so far in the two days. Give it 500miles, and I'll be more used to them and maybe my comments will be more valid. :wink:

Today, I wore winter gloves, and found it difficult finding the release paddles as they are very close to the brake levers. Again, no doubt I'll get use to it.


I find with thick winter gloves on an occasional problem with hitting the release paddle but it is only occasional.
I'm sure you'll get used to them,whether you'll get to like them is another matter of course :wink:

I'm not going to mention anything more about the Campag v Shimano affair,best left where it is.
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reohn2
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Re: My New Bike

Postby reohn2 » 4 Mar 2016, 5:11pm

Mick F wrote::lol: :lol:
Not riding tomorrow, so no updates from me on this thread!
Meanwhile, I've washed the beast.

One thing I've noticed, that when in bottom gear, the bottom of the jockey cage is level with the top of the wheel rim. That is about an inch and a half off the ground. :shock:

If I were to be in bottom gear and ride through some mud, or a flood, or on soft grass, the chain would be hitting something rather horrible. :lol:

Maybe the long cage of the Tiagra mech is too long?


Maybe the wheels are too small :shock: :wink:
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georgew
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Re: My New Bike

Postby georgew » 4 Mar 2016, 5:29pm

I just don't understand it really...I mean you are getting on a bit and it seems obvious that you should be buying the TSR27 with it's wide gear range and very low bottom gear...it's puzzling. :shock:

You will find that after a little while you will take the comfortable ride for granted and as I mentioned in another thread it's a shock when you take a conventional bike over the same course. As an old Geezer I have to say I love my TSR27 which shares the same frame with your bike and only wish I had known of its qualities when I was touring. I would love to know how it behaves when loaded so perhaps we could have a report sometime in the future.

pete75
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Re: My New Bike

Postby pete75 » 4 Mar 2016, 5:39pm

reohn2 wrote:Could I also remind you,that it was you,not me,who began this unnecessary diversion which was more about how much Mick was enjoying his new bike and not some Shimano v Campag debate you've insisted on continuing,seemingly for your own amusement.

As you were gents :?


My initial posting was merely a light hearted jest not meant to be taken seriously..
It wasn't me who turned it into a discussion....