Tax and income transparency

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old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Tax and income transparency

Post by old_windbag »

I've been watching the PM's income and investments debacle with the positive outcome of seeing his income and tax payments. The good thing was to see his colleagues earnings and the opposition as well. It was noticeable that the lefties earned much less than the right wing and also showed perhaps more honesty in their earnings. The HMRC indicated that osbornes wife got a share of rental income on their house too. I've looked to see if he's claimed any expenses on the rented property but it seems "clean". Also the figures shown can still hide unusual transactions to some extent.

They all pay large sums of tax but they're earning a kings ransome compared to many working much harder in many productive industries across the uk, not just hot air generation. Hopefully all mp's will have to openly publish their finances( including farage who's being evasive ). Personally I'd extend this to the whole of the population. All salaries should be made public domain, plus all benefits received( tax credits, disability, JSA etc plus inheritances+pension payments ). It would be similar to each of us being viewed as a company and having public accounts, which in many ways we are. This could be divisive but I feel it would work the opposite way in bringing more parity as the system we currently have is very divise and grossly unfair. They mentioned that Norway does this, so it must be workable, haven't heard of any civil wars lately.

For many years in a company I was at, we all knew what each other earned plus pay rises if any that were awarded. We all got on fine and where someone earned a little more we knew the reason why. Then years later we were taken over, many new staff from another organisation moved in and took control. Salary deals became secret, no one said what they earned, mistrust spread, rumours increased and the whole team spirit vanished. We knew promotions were being given to those incomers as done deals. Transparency in salaries would have allowed the many who worked harder than the few to see how "shmoozing", hand-shakes and other indicators :wink:, and general kiss - a**eing would give those few financially security. The company made enormous losses yet the same people continued to gain and never had their positions threatened, for them the system worked but as with so much in society it was the "secrecy" that worked for them. No different to those in westminster.

So perhaps we should all have to have our incomes made public?
Tacascarow
Posts: 328
Joined: 17 Jan 2012, 8:27am

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Tacascarow »

What we have seen is a summary. How they get there is still smoke & mirrors IMHO.
There was an excellent radio 4 broadcast about taxation in Norway where all citizens tax details are available online.
Quite a few pluses. Less us & them, more gender pay equality etc.
But this countries political base has been built on inequality from its conception hundreds of years ago so don't expect major changes without a revolution.
Tacascarow
Posts: 328
Joined: 17 Jan 2012, 8:27am

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Tacascarow »

We currently have a head of the HMRC who used to work for the company that managed Ian Camerons offshore investments?
Some might say his insider knowledge will help him to do his job. But my belief is he will direct his investigators away from his friends.
greyingbeard
Posts: 851
Joined: 24 Mar 2015, 10:41pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by greyingbeard »

set a thief to catch a thief....

a real tax dodger wont be telling the revenue now will he
old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by old_windbag »

Tacascarow wrote:We currently have a head of the HMRC who used to work for the company that managed Ian Camerons offshore investments?


Yes I saw the alleged connection in an article online. If it's Lin Homer then her email is a post-it on my screen. When it takes 35-40mins to answer a call for tax help( has done for many years now ), then someone needs to pull their finger out of their..... I think you do your tax by the rules given to best ability, but it's understandable where people make mistakes of a few hundred pounds( we're talking small earners here ) when the advice on finer tax points isn't easily available. The online PDF's are very general, everyones circumstances and business needs are variable. Bring back local tax offices.

Tacascarow wrote: Less us & them, more gender pay equality etc.


This is what I want to see, more parity, and very much so, for staff doing similar jobs in organisations. It may help eliminate the greasy pole brigade and direct money fairly to those who do generate the products and services an organisation is centred around. But it lets salary inconsistencies stand out.

On a simlar salary based point, I've always felt a bonus is a better system for reward for exemplary effort. Unfortunately many I worked with would be awarded a 6% pay rise( as opposed to 2.5% or even 0 ) because project X had been successful. Then next year they messed up big time on project Y costing us a fortune in losses..... but they still had the 6% contained in their salary. A one off bonus prevents salary accrual and the need for inflation to erode that award as punishment.


As regards the job of MP, it appears the £70k or so they earn is for part time work rather than full time dedication to their constituency....... as far as it appears by Boris Johnson's standards who is earning a fortune in newspaper and magazine article writing. If the MP's role was intensive he'd not have time for all of that and socialising.... theres only 168 hours in a week.
Psamathe
Posts: 17727
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Psamathe »

How come Osborne has been getting significant dividends from his fathers company (£44k last tax year) when that company has not paid any corporation tax since 2008?

Ian
Ben@Forest
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Ben@Forest »

Recently I advertised some second hand building materials I did not need, I was giving them away - no cost. They were snapped up by a bloke who claimed he would be using them on his house but from the van he turned up in and the bloke himself I suspect he might have wanted them for a paid job. I didn't care I just wanted them gone - but from our casual chat it also became apparent he works under the tax radar - he of course probably does not earn a great deal comparatively but how are such people going to be accounted for in a great pool of information where everyone knows everybody else's salary and tax affairs?
old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by old_windbag »

Heres the osborne wallpaper company details

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/00923748/OSBORNE--LITTLE-LIMITED/summary

Ben@Forest wrote: They were snapped up by a bloke who claimed he would be using them on his house but from the van he turned up in and the bloke himself I suspect he might have wanted them for a paid job.


But his tax evasion is no lesser a sin, if someone is paying tens of thousands from a large salary, yet he could be earning 20-30k from govvy job's and pay nothing. No different to the irish travellers that plague my area touting block paving and tarmacing. When they or their family need hospital care they don't hand over a cheque towards it, they think it's free, having contributed nothing in taxes, nor any contribution to society in general. Most people will reduce their tax where it is offered( legally ), and probably all will not pay more voluntarily, as if donating to a worthy cause..... the up keep of our society and infrastructure. Here HMRC, have £10k on me to put towards hospitals, doesn't tend to happen the law has to force people to pay. I've asked before, if we paid no tax of any form but were asked to volunteer an amount we thought ok, how much would be contributed?
Ben@Forest
Posts: 3647
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Ben@Forest »

old_windbag wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote: They were snapped up by a bloke who claimed he would be using them on his house but from the van he turned up in and the bloke himself I suspect he might have wanted them for a paid job.


But his tax evasion is no lesser a sin, if someone is paying tens of thousands from a large salary, yet he could be earning 20-30k from govvy job's and pay nothing. No different to the irish travellers that plague my area touting block paving and tarmacing. When they or their family need hospital care they don't hand over a cheque towards it, they think it's free, having contributed nothing in taxes, nor any contribution to society in general. Most people will reduce their tax where it is offered( legally ), and probably all will not pay more voluntarily, as if donating to a worthy cause..... the up keep of our society and infrastructure. Here HMRC, have £10k on me to put towards hospitals, doesn't tend to happen the law has to force people to pay. I've asked before, if we paid no tax of any form but were asked to volunteer an amount we thought ok, how much would be contributed?


I agree - but why all the outrage about some members of society and not others? Cameron has done nothing illegal but lots of people offer to work cash in hand and lots of people say yes please. I know two blokes who on top of their regular job salaries do odd jobs and pay no tax on that income. Logically you have to hoover up all those incomes for tax purposes.
old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by old_windbag »

I agree and perhaps we're talking at crossed purposes. Cameron may not have acted illegally... though it was calculated to be tax efficient I'm sure. Thats the aim for everyone I thought, to be tax efficient and only pay what you have to. Some are better at it, and have better inside knowledge to take advantage.... the higher your income the more opportunities.

The opposite extreme are those as you say taking cash in hand etc. They could be turning over a healthy income yet very little or none sees HMRC's pot.

Then we may highlight benefit scroungers as taking from taxes but contributing nothing...... yet we're happy to give 15-20% of a persons salary from taxes into a pension to retire 10yrs earlier than those remaining paying into the tax pot to subsidise them? Both tax burdens in different forms. Another area where transparency may lead to a fairer society and greater pension parity.
blackbike
Posts: 2492
Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by blackbike »

Cameron's tax affairs were transparent to HMRC and they had no problem with them.

I don't want to look at his tax returns, or anyone else's.

I see no need for a person's tax and income affairs to become public unless they are accused of a criminal offence relating to them and a trial in a public court is therefore required.
Psamathe
Posts: 17727
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Psamathe »

RNLI -loads of offshore savings (sorry, could not resist)

Ian
Geoff.D
Posts: 1982
Joined: 12 Mar 2010, 9:20pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by Geoff.D »

Psamathe wrote:RNLI -loads of offshore savings (sorry, could not resist)

Ian


All covered under the blanket of on-shore charitable status, I guess.
Should I publish my donations, or will my Panamanian friends do that for me?

Hmmm....perhaps I should prepare a press release or two (or three, four, five...)
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[XAP]Bob
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Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Psamathe wrote:How come Osborne has been getting significant dividends from his fathers company (£44k last tax year) when that company has not paid any corporation tax since 2008?

Ian

Probably no longer trading, and therefore not profit making (hence no tax) but paying out in small enough chunks to avoid big slices of tax on income.

Of course if you're wealthy you can afford to wait a couple of years for the money to get out of a company, if you're not then you get taxed heavily on it...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
old_windbag
Posts: 1869
Joined: 19 Feb 2015, 3:55pm

Re: Tax and income transparency

Post by old_windbag »

If you check the link in my post further up you'll see all the details of his fathers company. It is making a small loss but the. Directors emoluments look large for a small company. Business men know how to get their share even when the company suffers for it. Anyway you can read the accounts. And check out the directors etc at the link.
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