EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

[AlaninWales]

Reciprocal agreements are not particularly good even when we are part of the UK, but if we leave ...

Ian

If we leave the UK, Scots voters may ask why we've ignored their referendum result. Depending on who 'we' are, us in Wales may want a say too!

[Psamathe]

Reciprocal agreements are not particularly good even when we are part of the UK, but if we leave ...

Ian

If we leave the UK, Scots voters may ask why we've ignored their referendum result. Depending on who 'we' are, us in Wales may want a say too!

I had understood it was a UK referendum deciding if the UK is to remain or to leave the EU. I'd not heard anything about a Scottish Referendum to decide if Scotland is to remain or leave the EU nor a Welsh referendum to decide if Wales is to leave or remain in the EU.

Maybe I need to read up a bit more on it ?

Ian

[Mick F]

Exactly.

The UK is the UK. Scotland voted in their referendum to remain in the UK.

If the forthcoming EU referendum result is broken down into regions and we see that the Scottish majority vote was to remain, but the UK as a whole is to leave ............. so what?
What about analysing the result down to county level, or even town level?

I'm going to leave the EU.
I don't care about the rest of you, I'm out. I'm declaring UDI.

[Tacascarow]

Cornwall has received a lot of EU money. They have granted the Cornish minority status & my Tory MP wants to leave.
Those are three very good reasons to stay in my book. So MickF you will have to hop over the border mate
On a more serious note much of the money spent on conservation has come from the EU & our recent governments have ignored the environment because the birds & bees don't vote.
That's the main reason I want to stay in.

[Tiberius]

OUT...OUT...OUT.......and my best mate's Mum agrees......

[Mick F]

Cornwall has received a lot of EU money.

Dunno where you live, but if you read the stuff going on in Cornwall, no-one has seen any dosh that's made a difference. Cornwall is still a poor county with much unemployment and deprivation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-33360841
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cornwall

A report in 2015 found European Union funding failed to create an expected 10,000 new jobs in Cornwall, creating only 3,557 jobs

There's more out there.
Can't be bothered to find more, but if you want to search, it's there.

[reohn2]

On the choice of language (In / Out, Leave / Stay, etc) I don't think it matters.

It does to me - I'm about to go down to the bookies!

Put a tenner on each.

[Tacascarow]

Cornwall has received a lot of EU money.

Dunno where you live, but if you read the stuff going on in Cornwall, no-one has seen any dosh that's made a difference. Cornwall is still a poor county with much unemployment and deprivation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-33360841
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cornwall

A report in 2015 found European Union funding failed to create an expected 10,000 new jobs in Cornwall, creating only 3,557 jobs

There's more out there.
Can't be bothered to find more, but if you want to search, it's there.

You can't blame the EU if the money has been mismanaged by others.
I know a lot of EU money was available on a match funding basis & no one would do the match. Again not the fault of the EU. But a lot more could have been given if business or government had stepped up to the mark.
Cornwall would be a whole lot poorer without.
Parts of rural England, Scotland & Wales would be economic deserts without EU category 1 funding in my humble opinion.
We have a government who only care about the square mile of London where the bankers work.

But as I said before my primary concern of exit is environmental destruction & lack of funding in environmental projects.
All the major reserves & restoration projects around me have been funded by the EU.
Not making many jobs or generating much for the economy but certainly making a county I love a whole lot nicer to live in.

[Tacascarow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_policy_of_the_European_Union

[pwa]

The same applies to medical provision. Does anyone seriously think that Polish people living in the UK will be denied hospital treatment when they need it? I don't.

I was in France (under Sarkozy's changes). As I was resident (and paying tax) in France I was not eligible for treatment under the NHS (had to wait until I'be been back in the UK for 6 months before I could get treatment and even then I had to have a special interview at the hospital before my 1st consultant visit and produce proof of UK residency e.g. Council Tax bills, etc). But in France I was also suddenly not eligible for treatment under the French Healthcare system. Fortunately my own treatment was not urgent and I could wait. When the French changes were implemented there was one British cancer patient resident in France and his cancer treatment was stopped. In the end he returned to the UK and UK made an exception and continued his treatment.

And Sarkozy's changes were (eventually) ok under EU rules (UK MEP were having big arguments through the EU with Sarkozy so he had to "tweak" his changes to bring them into-line with EU rules).

It's too easy to assume what wont happen but it has and recently as well.

Countries like Spain cannot afford to be awkward about trade. They need it to continue uninterrupted, just as we do. Look how much of you fruit and veg comes from Spain. Leave or stay, trade will have to be kept as smooth as possible, and EU leaders will have to minimise problems....

But you have to balance the cost of e.g. Spain of strengthening their own "leave campaigns". Even with no trade agreement we can still trade. so Spain can still export to us and we can still export to Spain. It's just the there will be extra tax (so Spanish goods will cost us a bit more). and UK goods exported to Spain will cost the Spanish a bit more.

And there are still the eastern EU countries for whom freedom of movement is far more valuable that a free trade deal so does anybody really think they are going to agree to a deal that is in Germany's interest but not their own interest ? I cannot see it being as fast, cheap and easy as the "Leave" campaign suggest (and do you really trust people like Boris, Gove and IDS ?).

Ian

I've heard other tales of UK residents in other EU countries having trouble getting medical care. The natural question that arises from this is: in what way can being in the EU be a help if all it does is create a mess like that? We can create reciprocal agreements with EU countries whether we are in the EU or not.

I may not trust Boris, but I trust the EU even less. Not the EU nations, just the institution of the EU.

[Flinders]

Cornwall has received a lot of EU money.

Dunno where you live, but if you read the stuff going on in Cornwall, no-one has seen any dosh that's made a difference. Cornwall is still a poor county with much unemployment and deprivation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-33360841
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Cornwall

A report in 2015 found European Union funding failed to create an expected 10,000 new jobs in Cornwall, creating only 3,557 jobs

There's more out there.
Can't be bothered to find more, but if you want to search, it's there.

You can't blame the EU if the money has been mismanaged by others.
I know a lot of EU money was available on a match funding basis & no one would do the match. Again not the fault of the EU. But a lot more could have been given if business or government had stepped up to the mark.
Cornwall would be a whole lot poorer without.
Parts of rural England, Scotland & Wales would be economic deserts without EU category 1 funding in my humble opinion.
We have a government who only care about the square mile of London where the bankers work.

But as I said before my primary concern of exit is environmental destruction & lack of funding in environmental projects.
All the major reserves & restoration projects around me have been funded by the EU.
Not making many jobs or generating much for the economy but certainly making a county I love a whole lot nicer to live in.

One of the problems 'in' has is that successive UK governments and parties have found it convenient to blame all their failures on the EC, even when the vast majority of their failures have been in areas over which the EU has zero control, and UK governments have also failed to be open and truthful about the money the EU has put into the UK by claiming credit for anything the EU does for themselves.
category 1 funding is a good example of the latter.

Economically, just about all economists and all economic groups agree that leaving is a bad idea for us. The leave group finally dug some up to agree with them, one of whom is Minford.....to economists, that's practically the best joke this year. (for those not in the loop, Minford = the economist Thatcher loved, a big fan of Friedman, the advocate of greed is good and unfettered 'free markets', and he says we should 'treasure and honour the memory of' Thatcher).

[reohn2]

One of the problems 'in' has is that successive UK governments and parties have found it convenient to blame all their failures on the EC, even when the vast majority of their failures have been in areas over which the EU has zero control, and UK governments have also failed to be open and truthful about the money the EU has put into the UK by claiming credit for anything the EU does for themselves.
category 1 funding is a good example of the latter.

Economically, just about all economists and all economic groups agree that leaving is a bad idea for us. The leave group finally dug some up to agree with them, one of whom is Minford.....to economists, that's practically the best joke this year. (for those not in the loop, Minford = the economist Thatcher loved, a big fan of Friedman, the advocate of greed is good and unfettered 'free markets', and he says we should 'treasure and honour the memory of' Thatcher).

Flinders,How right you are,marry me

The Brexit group are no more than a bunch of self seeking grabbers.

[Psamathe]

...
But as I said before my primary concern of exit is environmental destruction & lack of funding in environmental projects.
All the major reserves & restoration projects around me have been funded by the EU.
Not making many jobs or generating much for the economy but certainly making a county I love a whole lot nicer to live in.

It's nt just "funding" but regulations. e.g. Uk government still wants Neonicotinoid pesticides permitted (even though there is now a lot more and stronger evidence about their damage than when the EU banned them). Farmers will leap at their use. We leave and can say goodbye to our bee populations (and the consequent damage that will then follow).

So it's regulatory as well as financially. Westminster in inthrall to NFU.

Ian

[pwa]

...
But as I said before my primary concern of exit is environmental destruction & lack of funding in environmental projects.
All the major reserves & restoration projects around me have been funded by the EU.
Not making many jobs or generating much for the economy but certainly making a county I love a whole lot nicer to live in.

It's nt just "funding" but regulations. e.g. Uk government still wants Neonicotinoid pesticides permitted (even though there is now a lot more and stronger evidence about their damage than when the EU banned them). Farmers will leap at their use. We leave and can say goodbye to our bee populations (and the consequent damage that will then follow).

So it's regulatory as well as financially. Westminster in inthrall to NFU.

Ian

Both good points, but you might also throw into the mix the loss of green land that is necessary as the population increases. And some of that increase is due to immigration from the EU of young people who are at an age where they will have children and need homes. More traffic on the roads, too. What is the environmental cost of that? Around here the small villages are seeing large fields built on to provide housing. The extra homes (very necessary) will put a lot of extra traffic on the previously quiet lanes.

[meic]

So it's regulatory as well as financially. Westminster in inthrall to NFU.

Isnt it the agrochemical industry pulling the strings rather than the NFU?

Of course in Brussels there are other strings being pulled by other hands rather than an idyllic lack of string pulling.