EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

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meic
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby meic » 29 Apr 2016, 11:44am

pwa wrote:I just don't see Europe as the source of all wisdom on this subject. If you really want to see some worrying use of dangerous chemicals, find out what French fruit growers do to supply us with shiny, blemish-free apples all year round.

An interesting way of saying things.

French farmers are part of the EU and their ill deeds are an EU fault but British farmers are not part of the EU being imposed on by it.
Actually British and French farmers are equally represented by and governed by the EU.
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pwa
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby pwa » 29 Apr 2016, 11:45am

Psamathe wrote:Another good example of the EU meddling that is good for the public but governments object to:
I believe it to 40,000 deaths a year caused by air pollution. UK government has and continues to drag its feet really wanting to do nothing. EU is pushing hard and is pretty well the only thing making the UK government do anything (although it's still a struggle). As is so often the case, a high profile incident that is avoidable will cause a massive outcry. But killing 40,000 through air pollution and it takes the EU to argue the case against the UK government (though this is seem as more unwanted meddling by Brexit).

Ian


Is that the same EU that gives us the extremely rigorous emissions tests for cars, ensuring that they always comply with good standards and give great fuel economy. Where would we be without those tests? (Yes, veering into sarcasm. Sorry.)

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meic
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby meic » 29 Apr 2016, 11:50am

Is that the same EU that gives us the extremely rigorous emissions tests for cars,


No, it didnt impose or dictate those emissions regulations on us from above. They were agreed by the EU of which we are a part.
The UK was instrumental in their formation, as was all the rest of Europe.
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AlaninWales
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby AlaninWales » 29 Apr 2016, 12:09pm

It is the same, economically safe EU that created the Euro zone and then imposed austerity cuts on those countries whose internal economy was not strong enough to support the rate, whilst their weakness kept the exports produced by stronger economies cheap on the world markets. The same economically safe place which has been unable to certify an audit of its income and spending for 18 years. No wonder economic experts predict disaster for any country wanting to distance itself from such laudable and sensible practices.

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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby pwa » 29 Apr 2016, 12:26pm

meic wrote:
Is that the same EU that gives us the extremely rigorous emissions tests for cars,


No, it didnt impose or dictate those emissions regulations on us from above. They were agreed by the EU of which we are a part.
The UK was instrumental in their formation, as was all the rest of Europe.


But my point is that being in the EU does not ensure access to good governance and excellent regulations.

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meic
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby meic » 29 Apr 2016, 12:35pm

Nor does leaving.

At present the EU does seem to be leaning more towards the benefit of the people, while the UK is leaning more towards the benefit of the corporations.
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby Vorpal » 29 Apr 2016, 1:43pm

pwa wrote:But my point is that being in the EU does not ensure access to good governance and excellent regulations.


That is a fair point, and I have to admit that one of the problems with the EU is that it can take years to get everyone to agree on proposed regulations. The emissions testing is a case in point. The 'real life' emissions testing probably could have been available more than 5 years ago, as the EEC committee for emissions and testing standards began testing this technology more than 10 years ago.

The UK, however has consistenly lobbied against it. Yes, that's right. Lobbied against it.

So, if you want better emissions testing, at least wait until the EU comes out with the long awaited 'real life' testing requirements. Because the UK probably won't implement them without the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... -pollution
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby 53x13 » 29 Apr 2016, 1:49pm

I'm for IN. I think Obama's intervention probably skewered any chance the out lobby had. Trading and security sharing between the US and the UK is a long standing agreement which has been extremely beneficial to both parties. I can see the pique of the Americans should we try to alter this agreement (on our terms) and the lengthy, perhaps decades long route to 'getting the special relationship' back in place. This would likely have very deleterious effects on the UK economic development and our ability to protect ourselves on the international stage. We already receive much better intel and cooperation than our European counterparts.

As they say in Yorkshire : You don't get owt, for OUT! :lol:

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Mick F
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby Mick F » 29 Apr 2016, 2:49pm

Do you think Obama gave his "advice" to us out of the goodness of his heart, or do you think he is making sure that USA feathers its own nest?
Is he worried for our sake, or for USA's - or even his own - sake?
Can you trust advice from an outsider with a vested interest in the outcome?
Can you trust a USA president on his way out who probably wants to leave a legacy to his memory?
Mick F. Cornwall

Psamathe
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby Psamathe » 29 Apr 2016, 3:56pm

pwa wrote:
meic wrote:
Is that the same EU that gives us the extremely rigorous emissions tests for cars,


No, it didnt impose or dictate those emissions regulations on us from above. They were agreed by the EU of which we are a part.
The UK was instrumental in their formation, as was all the rest of Europe.


But my point is that being in the EU does not ensure access to good governance and excellent regulations.

As everybody says, "not perfect" but a lot better than Westminster. I suspect because they are thinking about the people rather than corporate profits, are less prone to looking for those non-exec directorships ready for when they no longer win elections, etc.

Ironically, the EU will probably be better without the UK because Westminster seems to lobby and vote and block so much stuff that would be in our interest (but not in the interests of their corporate mates). Trouble is that leaving will give give Westminster a free hand ... (e.g. emissions, tax haven transparency, etc.)

Ian

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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby tod28 » 29 Apr 2016, 8:22pm

Westminster would have no hand (or input) at all re emissions as 43% of UK car production is exported to other EU countries and would still have to comply with current and future EU regulations. The same for any other goods we "export" to the rest of the EU.

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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby 53x13 » 29 Apr 2016, 9:27pm

There's a very good reason why 11 foreign car and components manufacturers have set up factories in the UK: access to a good skilled automotive workforce, and easy and free trade access to the European Union. Make any of that difficult/more expensive and half a million jobs vanish elsewhere, virtually overnight.

I saw just how quickly American electronics firms had up sticks in my area. Make no bones about it, millions of British jobs are on the line should we be stupid enough to get out. The grass is never greener..

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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby DavidT » 29 Apr 2016, 11:38pm

I'm for Remain. Most importantly I think we will remain better served from a business point of view, and an employee rights point of view.

Having seen some history books, I think it's rather good (or at least admittedly a lesser of evils) that we now sit around tables discussing things with each other. Albeit that inevitably involves compromises.

As for international/EU standards... As an example I look at a cars these days and think back to the naff ones I grew up with in the 1970s. In any case whether we are in or out, Standards - whether for cars, toys, electrical equipment or implanted medical devices will continue to apply, and thank heavens for that. It would be nice to be able to influence them.

Most worringly, if we come out I guess I'll have wasted my money on my great B&M (StVZO, and therefore UK approved) lighting and will have to try and comply with our own 'excellent' British Standard BS6102 over which I assume we had full sovereignty... :roll:

As the comedian Henning Wehn has said. "Is the UK in Europe?....Well look at a map...." :lol:

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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 30 Apr 2016, 12:55am

Hi,
Sorry its a bit late in the morning so not read all the posts.
I think both sides have made a very poor attempt at giving us plain facts.
So (not sure what the polls are saying at the mo) but fear will take hold like with Scotland and we will stay.

Quite simple, in a crowd of people you have opinions and you have sitters who are too afraid to speak and don't want to be branded as one in a minority.

Just like school kids who want to hide at the back of the class.

Who here wants more immigrants and still wants to be ruled by Brussels?
Can the stay brigade say they will continue to swallow that............................
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jan19
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Re: EU referendum: stay or remain? Leave or stay?

Postby jan19 » 30 Apr 2016, 8:26am

I think both sides have made a very poor attempt at giving us plain facts.


There's plenty of "fact" out there if you can be bothered to read it. It just depends whose "facts" you want to believe.

You can either believe the "facts" as told by Cameron, Osborne, Obama, most of our major trading partners such as China, Australia, Canada, other EU partners, the Governor of the Bank of England, the major Trades Unions such as Unite and the NFU, the science community lead by Prof Stephen Hawking and most top business leaders and think we'd be better off staying in....

or you can believe the "facts" as told by Boris, Gove, Grayling, Farage, Lawson and minorities in the above mentioned groups.

I know which ones sound more convincing to me....

Who here wants more immigrants and still wants to be ruled by Brussels?


Not this tired old chestnut again. Half of the immigrants do not come from the EU. So leaving the EU will have no impact at all on those - in fact as has been widely publicised, the camp at Calais will be relocated to Kent when the French no longer try to stop people coming to the UK. If we want to make trade deals with the EU - as Norway does -, we will be forced to accept free movement of people. Leaving the EU will make no appreciable difference to immigration.

We are not "ruled" by Brussels any more than France or Germany is. Another Daily Mail myth. We can - and do - opt out of all sorts of things (like the Euro) and a concensus has to be reached by everyone. We elect MEPs just like everyone else, and it is for these democratically elected folk to represent us. One of the first things Boris did having come out pro-Brexit was to publish a list of ludicrous EU laws - all of which were comprehensively proved never to have happened! Many EU laws - I'm thinking particularly of the ones protecting the environment - are far better than anything our own governments have done.

Someone earlier - pwa I think - said he was going to listen to the views of his daughter. I think that's a very sound idea as whatever decision is reached will affect our children and grandchildren for generations, and personal views should be tempered by that. My daughter and son-in-law are both very firmly of the view we should stay in.

Jan