Scotland comes to the rescue?

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
mercalia
Posts: 14578
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby mercalia » 26 Jun 2016, 12:19pm

Nicola Sturgeon says MSPs at Holyrood could veto Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby meic » 26 Jun 2016, 12:34pm

She has a point. The result of the referendum was leave at UK level and morally democratically binding at that level.

Within Scotland it was remain and there is a good case to say that that this is also morally democratically binding or at least worth a separate referendum within Scotland as the situation has radically changed since the 2014 referendum.

No point here though. :cry: :cry:
Yma o Hyd

Psamathe
Posts: 12261
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Psamathe » 26 Jun 2016, 12:35pm

I saw a report earlier today that included the report from the House of Lords that stated the "Scotland must agree" requirement and in my totally inexpert opinion I could see that it did look like Scotland could withhold their agreement but I suspect it will come down to legal opinion.

And of interest she was asked about the anger the English electorate would feel if she blocked our withdrawal from the EU to which she commented about the anger of the Scottish electorate at being taken out of the EU against their will.

Ian

mercalia
Posts: 14578
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby mercalia » 26 Jun 2016, 12:54pm

Psamathe wrote:I saw a report earlier today that included the report from the House of Lords that stated the "Scotland must agree" requirement and in my totally inexpert opinion I could see that it did look like Scotland could withhold their agreement but I suspect it will come down to legal opinion.

And of interest she was asked about the anger the English electorate would feel if she blocked our withdrawal from the EU to which she commented about the anger of the Scottish electorate at being taken out of the EU against their will.

Ian


well 16M would not be angry & I bet a few leavers also who only wanted to make sure the STAYS didnt win too well?

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50984
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Mick F » 26 Jun 2016, 6:26pm

How can anyone veto the Brexit?
The rules were laid down before the referendum, and no-one complained.

It was UK referendum.
It wasn't a constituency referendum, or a regional referendum, nor an English, Welsh, N Irish or Scottish referendum ............ and it wasn't even a Cornish referendum.

It was a UK referendum.
The whole of the UK.
The whole of the UK electorate.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50984
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Mick F » 26 Jun 2016, 6:47pm

First things first. Is there such a mandate? Ms Sturgeon says yes. She says Scotland is a nation - although not presently a state. She is the elected political leader of that nation
OED wrote:nation
noun
a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory
I reckon the Scottish NATION didn't vote. There are many many Scottish people throughout the world who were denied a vote because they aren't UK citizens.
I also reckon that NS isn't the first minister of a NATION, but a first minister of a devolved part of the UK.

I'm not saying that there isn't a Scottish Nation, but NS isn't the first minister of a nation.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Paulatic
Posts: 5730
Joined: 2 Feb 2014, 1:03pm
Location: 24 Hours from Lands End

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Paulatic » 26 Jun 2016, 7:00pm

Mick F wrote:How can anyone veto the Brexit?
The rules were laid down before the referendum, and no-one complained.

It was UK referendum.
It wasn't a constituency referendum, or a regional referendum, nor an English, Welsh, N Irish or Scottish referendum ............ and it wasn't even a Cornish referendum.

It was a UK referendum.
The whole of the UK.
The whole of the UK electorate.


Point 70 in this document
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 38/138.pdf
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/
E2E info

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50984
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Mick F » 26 Jun 2016, 7:10pm

Nice link! :D
Trouble is, the word is "believe".
Therefore not factual.
It'll have to be argued by other folk more edumacated than me.
Also, as I said, NS is not the first minister of a nation despite what she believes.

Both our daughters are Scottish nationals because we lived up there for quite some years, but we wouldn't go back there for all the tea in China.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Paulatic
Posts: 5730
Joined: 2 Feb 2014, 1:03pm
Location: 24 Hours from Lands End

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Paulatic » 26 Jun 2016, 7:24pm

Mick F wrote:Nice link! :D
Trouble is, the word is "believe".
Therefore not factual.
It'll have to be argued by other folk more edumacated than me.
Also, as I said, NS is not the first minister of a nation despite what she believes.

Both our daughters are Scottish nationals because we lived up there for quite some years, but we wouldn't go back there for all the tea in China.


Her title is "First minister of Scotland" who seems to be the only person working this weekend.

Out on my bike this morning I met 2 friends. Both voted to stay in the UK. This morning both said they wished they had voted for Independence If they get the chance again they will
One of them is an Englishman, like myself, who's house is on the market. When asked where he would like to move to his reply was, "there is no way I will return to England after this."

A small sample , I know, but a perfect example of why you are a happy exit voter living in England and my friend a very unhappy remain who's definitely remaining in Scotland.
Whatever I am, wherever I am, this is me. This is my life

https://stcleve.wordpress.com/category/lejog/
E2E info

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1526
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby georgew » 26 Jun 2016, 7:28pm

Mick F wrote:
First things first. Is there such a mandate? Ms Sturgeon says yes. She says Scotland is a nation - although not presently a state. She is the elected political leader of that nation
OED wrote:nation
noun
a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory
I reckon the Scottish NATION didn't vote. There are many many Scottish people throughout the world who were denied a vote because they aren't UK citizens.
I also reckon that NS isn't the first minister of a NATION, but a first minister of a devolved part of the UK.

I'm not saying that there isn't a Scottish Nation, but NS isn't the first minister of a nation.



Are you really serious?

Scotland you acknowledge is a Nation but NS as the elected First Minister... isn't the First Minister of a Nation........interesting but such sophistry is beyond me.

Your absence from Scotland will no doubt be keenly felt ........but we will just have to do our best to get over it. :?

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50984
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Mick F » 26 Jun 2016, 7:37pm

Yep.
It's all a regional thing, as I've said.

We hardly have a person down here who is in the least bit unhappy with Brexit.
No doubt there are some unhappy remainers here somewhere, but not in evidence at all and they weren't in evidence during the run-up.

We were down the pub yesterday evening, and there was singing and dancing and Union Flag waving. Happy faces all round. :D

Yes George, I am serious.
The first minister of Scotland is just that. The first minister of the Scottish Parliament.
Not the first minister of a nation.
To be a national, you need to be born there or have citizenship.
Unless Scotland gets independence, no-one can be a Scottish citizen. People there are UK citizens, and some are born Scottish too.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1526
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby georgew » 26 Jun 2016, 7:50pm

Mick F wrote:Yep.

Yes George, I am serious.
The first minister of Scotland is just that. The first minister of the Scottish Parliament.
Not the first minister of a nation.

To be a national, you need to be born there or have citizenship.
Unless Scotland gets independence, no-one can be a Scottish citizen. People there are UK citizens, and some are born Scottish too.



Alas....at least Wiki disagrees with you.

"The First Minister of Scotland (Scottish Gaelic: Prìomh Mhinistear na h-Alba; Scots: Heid Meinister o Scotland) is the political leader of Scotland and head of the Scottish Government."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Min ... f_Scotland

Such celebrations you mention in Cornwall may be premature....that is given how your Council has profited from the EU.

"The Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly Growth Programme is worth €603,706,864 (excluding technical assistance) and is made up of two main funding streams:

European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) -The ERDF Programme is worth €437,472,735.
European Social Fund (ESF) - The ESF Programme is worth €166,234,129."

https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/business/europe/

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50984
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Mick F » 26 Jun 2016, 7:56pm

Yes, I utterly agree.
NS is the first minister of the government of Scotland.
Note the words "first minister" and not "prime minister".

I'm saying that despite what she is reported as saying, she is NOT the first minister of a nation.

Her nationality is British. The Scottish people are British.
This situation will remain until and unless Scotland get independence.

Objective One for Cornwall can go and get stuffed as far as most folk are concerned down here. We see none of it.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1526
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby georgew » 26 Jun 2016, 8:10pm

Mick F wrote:Yes, I utterly agree.
NS is the first minister of the government of Scotland.
Note the words "first minister" and not "prime minister".

I'm saying that despite what she is reported as saying, she is NOT the first minister of a nation.

Her nationality is British. The Scottish people are British.
This situation will remain until and unless Scotland get independence.

Objective One for Cornwall can go and get stuffed as far as most folk are concerned down here. We see none of it.



Point one: No-one up to now has used the phrase "Prime Minister"

Point two: I repeat again "Scotland you acknowledge is a Nation but NS as the elected First Minister... isn't the First Minister of a Nation........interesting but such sophistry is beyond me."

Point three: Take immediate action to sue Cornwall Council for stealing the millions given to you by the EU.

Psamathe
Posts: 12261
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Scotland comes to the rescue?

Postby Psamathe » 26 Jun 2016, 8:15pm

Mick F wrote:How can anyone veto the Brexit?
The rules were laid down before the referendum, and no-one complained.

It was UK referendum.
It wasn't a constituency referendum, or a regional referendum, nor an English, Welsh, N Irish or Scottish referendum ............ and it wasn't even a Cornish referendum.

It was a UK referendum.
The whole of the UK.
The whole of the UK electorate.

Actually it was an advisory referendum; the result is not legally binding on the Government. That is because of the way the referendum legislation was drawn-up. It comes down to the referendum legislation; for example, the Alternative Vote referendum was drawn-up as legally binding so the government were legally bound to the referendum result. Not the case for the EU referendum.

Ian