Brexit consequences

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georgew
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby georgew » 4 Jul 2016, 5:10pm

mercalia wrote:I think your idea of asylum shopping is perverse - asylum shopping is picking and choosing? going for the best deal, which the EU idea of first safe haven is supposed to stop?

Giving asylum is ultimately an act of CHARITY and not some god given human right?




Not "God given" it's true....but.........

"Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_asylum

AlaninWales
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby AlaninWales » 4 Jul 2016, 5:32pm

mjr wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:
mjr wrote:What's that got to do with the right of asylum?

Quite a lot really: In France for example

French law does not apply to the UK (at the moment, at least) and an act doesn't become correct just because someone else does it.

As I said (but you conveniently missed out of your quote :roll: )
AlaninWales wrote:... so we would not exactly be out of line with our EU-member neighbours if we used the same logic to ship asylum seekers back to the safe country they had just exited..

mjr wrote:
A refugee's rights under UN convention (i.e. as would apply to us having left the EU) include the right not to be forcibly returned, but that only applies to returning to the country where they are unsafe:
"No Contracting State shall expel or return ('refouler') a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion" (Article 33(1)).[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees
Both wiki entries have links to the source documents.

Nothing there exempts us from considering the application, nor does it enable us to dump our duty to refugees on France, does it?

Nothing there exempts us from considering that they had come from our safe European neighbour and had no right to claim that they were unprotected in that state. Consideration time? About the interval between the ferry arrival and the next departure.

AlaninWales
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby AlaninWales » 4 Jul 2016, 5:39pm

mjr wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:Quite a lot really: In France for example

French law does not apply to the UK (at the moment, at least) and an act doesn't become correct just because someone else does it.

As I said (but you conveniently missed out of your quote :roll: )
AlaninWales wrote:... so we would not exactly be out of line with our EU-member neighbours if we used the same logic to ship asylum seekers back to the safe country they had just exited..

That is exactly the same logic as they use to refuse asylum.
mjr wrote:
A refugee's rights under UN convention (i.e. as would apply to us having left the EU) include the right not to be forcibly returned, but that only applies to returning to the country where they are unsafe:
"No Contracting State shall expel or return ('refouler') a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion" (Article 33(1)).[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees
Both wiki entries have links to the source documents.

Nothing there exempts us from considering the application, nor does it enable us to dump our duty to refugees on France, does it?

Nothing there exempts us from considering that they had come from our safe European neighbour and had no right to claim that they were unprotected in that state. Consideration time? About the interval between the ferry arrival and the next departure.

mercalia
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby mercalia » 4 Jul 2016, 6:09pm

So Farage is giving up the leadership of UKIP and eventually retiring to normal life, having achieved what he promised to deliver ( how many can say that? ) . What a shame as we are left with middle class stuffed shirts establishment figures who think they are better than the rest of us but pretend they arent? A sad day, no one else to insult and irritate them?

Freddie
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby Freddie » 4 Jul 2016, 6:14pm

AlaninWales, I have mentioned several times in other threads that by law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation) an asylum seeker is only such until they come to the first safe country adjacent to their own, where they are obliged to apply for asylum. Once they have applied for and been granted asylum, they become a refugee. Once they move beyond the first safe country, they become migrants; they are no longer asylum seekers nor refugees.

I'd be surprised if mjr didn't see any of those posts, as I'm sure he posted in some of those threads.

There is also the small fact that only 30% of the people in the camps in France are actually from Syria; whether 70% have any legitimate claim to refugee status in any country, would be something that had to be taken on a case by case basis, with a number of them likely failing to prove they are in need of refuge (not withstanding the fact neither France nor the UK is the place they should attempt to claim it).

It is called the 'migrant crisis' for a reason, because these people are migrants, as explained above. They gave up their asylum seeker/refugee status when they left the nearest safe country adjacent to their own.

Psamathe
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby Psamathe » 4 Jul 2016, 6:38pm

francovendee wrote:...
The concern a lot of expats have is over health cover. At present the UK government 'chips in' towards our medical costs, I can see this coming to an end and unless you are working and paying into the French medical system then France will insist on private health insurance. I believe this would be very expensive. The EU migrants in the UK are mostly in work and paying national insurance contributions so would still get health cover.
...

I was one of those "caught" by Sarkozy's changes to the Health Cover for inactives (designed to get rid of Brits as he was not keen on the Brit enclaves that seemed to be cropping up around the country). He caught around 6000 of us. As I was in France when the changes were 1st introduced the only option was to leave the country (as there were no Private Health Insurance offerings available then). I understand that now, even for inactives, once you have lived in France legally for 5 years you can get into the state health cover.

The majority of people who would be affected by UK paying for their health treatment will be the retired (whose health treatment in France is paid for by the UK).

I think it will all hinge on the negotiations as to who can stay on what basis. I think reciprocity will apply and I'd suspect that those settled in their non-citizenship EU country will be granted residence permits/work permits. I'd also suspect that people moving more recently (i.e. to get in before the borders close) might not find it so easy.

I do wonder if there might be tighter requirements on "not being a burden on the state" i.e. you have and can demonstrate adequate income so you will not require state assistance. Some (non-EU) countries have strict income/investment requirements to ensure you are self-supporting. I could see such tests being introduced. And maybe if your case relies on employment then should your employment end then your residence rights would also end.

I think that Ms May is right to leave the question open and Leadsom is daft to be providing one way guarantees at this time. It is subject to negotiations and you don't start setting your side of the agreements before you've even started the process to start the negotiations (just shows lack of experience of her part is suppose).

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby mjr » 5 Jul 2016, 3:43pm

mercalia wrote:I think your idea of asylum shopping is perverse - asylum shopping is picking and choosing? going for the best deal, which the EU idea of first safe haven is supposed to stop?

I think that's an attempt to redefine asylum shopping - asylum shopping is obtaining asylum from several countries and picking the one you like best, such as a refugee in one country applying for asylum in further countries. It is not simply heading for a country where you feel safe, rather than stopping in the first country that is on some bureaucrat's list as safe.

Giving asylum is ultimately an act of CHARITY and not some god given human right?

As others have pointed out, it is indeed a human right. I find the reluctance of some to honour this human right rather distasteful, some sort of wish to rewind back to before WW2.

Freddie actually got the asylum shopping bit right as it currently stands for the European Union, which regards itself as one area for this:
Freddie wrote:AlaninWales, I have mentioned several times in other threads that by law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation) an asylum seeker is only such until they come to the first safe country adjacent to their own, where they are obliged to apply for asylum. Once they have applied for and been granted asylum, they become a refugee. Once they move beyond the first safe country, they become migrants; they are no longer asylum seekers nor refugees.

That EU law might no longer apply to a Brexited UK, though.

There is also the small fact that only 30% of the people in the camps in France are actually from Syria; whether 70% have any legitimate claim to refugee status in any country, would be something that had to be taken on a case by case basis, with a number of them likely failing to prove they are in need of refuge (not withstanding the fact neither France nor the UK is the place they should attempt to claim it).

I disagree about where they should attempt to claim it, but the mixing of migrants with refugees does seem to be the problem and there seems no solution which is both cheap and fair.

AlaninWales wrote:
mjr wrote:
AlaninWales wrote:Quite a lot really: In France for example

French law does not apply to the UK (at the moment, at least) and an act doesn't become correct just because someone else does it.

As I said (but you conveniently missed out of your quote :roll: )
AlaninWales wrote:... so we would not exactly be out of line with our EU-member neighbours if we used the same logic to ship asylum seekers back to the safe country they had just exited..

That is exactly the same logic as they use to refuse asylum.

I cut that but answered it: an act doesn't become correct just because someone else does it. Shouldn't we do better than that? Isn't Britain meant to be a bastion of freedom? Are we comfortable in engaging in a race to the bottom on human rights?

mjr wrote:Nothing there exempts us from considering the application, nor does it enable us to dump our duty to refugees on France, does it?

Nothing there exempts us from considering that they had come from our safe European neighbour and had no right to claim that they were unprotected in that state. Consideration time? About the interval between the ferry arrival and the next departure.

Neither convention nor protocol say people have to request asylum in the first state they reach, do they? So I don't agree with that, especially once we no longer have a union with France.

mercalia wrote:So Farage is giving up the leadership of UKIP and eventually retiring to normal life, having achieved what he promised to deliver ( how many can say that? ) .

But Farage hasn't delivered: not his £350m to the NHS, not the immigration cut and he's even quitting before the UK is out of the EU. Quitting now smacks of some sort of power struggle between funders and politicians in UKIP, but I expect it'll become clear soon.

What a shame as we are left with middle class stuffed shirts establishment figures who think they are better than the rest of us but pretend they arent? A sad day, no one else to insult and irritate them?

Oh plenty of people insult and irritate them, so we need not morn the departure of one never-grown-up public schoolboy.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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pete75
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby pete75 » 5 Jul 2016, 3:49pm

mercalia wrote:So Farage is giving up the leadership of UKIP and eventually retiring to normal life, having achieved what he promised to deliver ( how many can say that? ) . What a shame as we are left with middle class stuffed shirts establishment figures who think they are better than the rest of us but pretend they arent? A sad day, no one else to insult and irritate them?


Not surprised Mr Farage is going.

“The Brexit heroes of yesterday are now the sad heroes of today,” Juncker told MEPs at the European parliament in Strasbourg.

“Those who have contributed to the situation in the UK have resigned – Johnson, Farage and others. They are as it were retro-nationalists, they are not patriots.Patriots don't resign when things get difficult, they stay. Instead of developing the plan, they are leaving the boat.”

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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jul 2016, 4:09pm

mjr wrote:Neither convention nor protocol say people have to request asylum in the first state they reach, do they?

Yes, it's currently law in the EU, though there are moves for reforming it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ee-migrant
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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mjr
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby mjr » 5 Jul 2016, 5:19pm

Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:Neither convention nor protocol say people have to request asylum in the first state they reach, do they?

Yes, it's currently law in the EU, though there are moves for reforming it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ee-migrant

Sorry, I know about that EU law which I mentioned above. Let me disambiguate my question: neither the Geneva Convention nor the New York Protocol on Refugees say people have to request asylum in the first safe country they reach, do they?

In other words: if we no longer have EU laws or agreements applying to us, we'd have neither justifiable policy or practical ability to send refugees away without considering their cases - unless we could conclude EU-like laws and agreements but that's probably going to cost us in compensating those who receive our maybe-refugees.
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jul 2016, 9:39pm

mjr wrote: Let me disambiguate my question: neither the Geneva Convention nor the New York Protocol on Refugees say people have to request asylum in the first safe country they reach, do they?

In other words: if we no longer have EU laws or agreements applying to us, we'd have neither justifiable policy or practical ability to send refugees away without considering their cases - unless we could conclude EU-like laws and agreements but that's probably going to cost us in compensating those who receive our maybe-refugees.

There are no requirements. UNHCR guidance is
"In situations of large-scale influx, asylum seekers should be admitted to the State in which they first seek refuge, and if that State is unable to admit them on a durable basis, it should always admit them at least on a temporary basis and provide them with protection according to the principles set out below."
UNHCR Executive Committee Conclusion N° 22 (1981)


In addition, the UN has requirements for resettlement from the country of first asylum. I am not familiar with the detail of those, but it requires ongoing threat, serious medical needs, family reunification, or a lack of a viable option for local integration.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Psamathe
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby Psamathe » 6 Jul 2016, 9:50am

Re: Brexit consequences
I heard yesterday (TV) and today (Radio) that Sheffield Hallam University have been talking about how these days scientific research projects are often collaborative and involve multiple universities so grant applications are from the collaborative team. And they then said that since the Brexit vote for 4 such major project grant applications with EU universities the EU universities have said that they no longer think that applying with a UK university will help their application so Sheffield Hallam has been excluded from the application/research project.

That is one university so it is reasonable to assume that others are having similar experience.

So yet another warning from Remain so readily dismissed by Blobby/Gove/Leadsom/IDS/et al has turned out true to the further detriment of the longer term future of the UK.

Ian

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mjr
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby mjr » 6 Jul 2016, 10:48am

Psamathe wrote:That is one university so it is reasonable to assume that others are having similar experience.

I'm sure they are. The first email I had expressing unhappiness at the result was from UEA's Vice-Chancellor. It arrived well before the one from Stronger In. Academics aren't stupid, no matter what Leave campaigns said.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Brexit consequences

Postby al_yrpal » 6 Jul 2016, 10:55am

Tesco shares dived, as did other supermakets. Sold mine yesterday before the dive and bought Lloyds Bank for the 7% dividend. Lloyds are still on the way down albeit more slowly. Lots of opportunities to make money on spread betting and the banksters will be making a fortune shorting stuff. Chaos reigns..

Al
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