Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

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reohn2
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2016, 3:17pm

Mick F wrote:I'm saying he had an axe, not a gun.
No need to shoot him dead. Wound him instead? Shoot him in the feet or legs.


Handguns aren't that accurate even at short distances especially under duress,the police and military using handguns are taught to stop the attacker,this means aiming at the biggest part of the target,the torso and specifically the chest area where all the vital organs are.
Two or three shots to the chest stops almost anyone from further action.
It's that simple.
A police officer or even someone in the military rarely fires their weapon outside a shooting range.Things in real life situations happen quick and require a quick response,sometimes in the presence and close proximity of the general public.
The officer is taught to shoot to kill that stops any further action from the target.
A hit to the legs would be a bad shot not a good one as not only could it go straight through with little loss of velocity,and could hit someone else either from a ricochet or stood behind target,but it doesn't stop the attacker just slows them down,so further shots maybe needed to stop the attack which in turn is further possible risk to the public
Also shooting downward toward the legs,which isn't a positive target anyway for a handgun,from a standing position causes a very obtuse angle of ricochet from the floor taking little velocity out of the round meaning it can go anywhere.
Last edited by reohn2 on 19 Jul 2016, 3:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2016, 3:26pm

al_yrpal wrote:Borders are a key thing to inhibit terrorism. They can also be used to punish plotters and terrorist sympathisers by withdrawing passports especially in our island.

Al


All of which is a reaction to an action caused by bad illegal decisions taken that overrode peace with war,because we armed an unstable dictator,all for profit,and in the same way we still do with Saudi Arabia and other sick and barbarous regimes .
The UK and other countries are as guilty as hell for causing this problem by plundering other countries of their wealth and propping up evil by supplying them with evil means.
WE NEED TO STOP DOING THAT AND WE NEED TO STOP DOING IT TODAY.
But will we?
Not as long as capitalism in it's present form continues.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Jul 2016, 4:42pm

In the Alps now… makes you think..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... g-scantil/

Al
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reohn2
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby reohn2 » 19 Jul 2016, 7:53pm

al_yrpal wrote:In the Alps now… makes you think..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... g-scantil/

Al


We don't even know his religion.
The report says he's a petty criminal with a record reaching back 15 years.
It also says he was helped the day before when he wasn't very well by the lady he stabbed.
I don't know about religious zealot,he sounds like a nasty piece of work to me :evil:
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pete75
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby pete75 » 19 Jul 2016, 9:10pm

blackbike wrote:
Freddie wrote:I had forgotten about that poor man. So many attacks have happened since then, I can't believe that was only in April.


I'm not entirely surprised you'd forgotten about the story.

For such a horrific hate crime, and so obviously pre-meditated, It only received minimal coverage and the social commentators who are usually so eager to analyse and criticise were not very active.

Why this was we can only guess.


Eh? It was all over the news when it happened and again a couple of weeks ago when the murderer was in court and sentenced. You need to pay a bit more attention to current affairs.

blackbike
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby blackbike » 19 Jul 2016, 9:17pm

pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:
Freddie wrote:I had forgotten about that poor man. So many attacks have happened since then, I can't believe that was only in April.


I'm not entirely surprised you'd forgotten about the story.

For such a horrific hate crime, and so obviously pre-meditated, It only received minimal coverage and the social commentators who are usually so eager to analyse and criticise were not very active.

Why this was we can only guess.


Eh? It was all over the news when it happened and again a couple of weeks ago when the murderer was in court and sentenced. You need to pay a bit more attention to current affairs.


I did pay attention.

That's why I noticed it got no more than quite cursory treatment both when it happened and at conviction.

There was none of the usual 'liberal' analysis of why the crime happened, along with the usual moralising about hate crimes and how awful the UK is.

In my view the killing was even more shocking than that of Jo Cox, as the killer drove 200 miles to do it.

pwa
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby pwa » 19 Jul 2016, 9:27pm

Islamist or not, many of these recent "terrorist" attacks, from the murders of Jo Cox and a shopkeeper in Scotland, to the mass murder on the Promenade des Angles, have mental and emotional health causes. In my view Islamism or whatever are outlets for people with violent mental health issues to express their anger. That is a consistent theme. I'm not sure how that helps us deal with the threat, though.

landsurfer
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby landsurfer » 19 Jul 2016, 10:20pm

Hard words, well said, pwa
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al_yrpal
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby al_yrpal » 19 Jul 2016, 10:58pm

Apparently the shopkeeper made a lot of YouTube videos. The murderer was one of the few people who saw them and considered them blasphemous. That is why he murdered him, not because he was being nice to what they call Kaffars (or whatever)

Al
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pete75
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby pete75 » 20 Jul 2016, 12:01am

blackbike wrote:
pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:
I'm not entirely surprised you'd forgotten about the story.

For such a horrific hate crime, and so obviously pre-meditated, It only received minimal coverage and the social commentators who are usually so eager to analyse and criticise were not very active.

Why this was we can only guess.


Eh? It was all over the news when it happened and again a couple of weeks ago when the murderer was in court and sentenced. You need to pay a bit more attention to current affairs.


I did pay attention.

That's why I noticed it got no more than quite cursory treatment both when it happened and at conviction.

There was none of the usual 'liberal' analysis of why the crime happened, along with the usual moralising about hate crimes and how awful the UK is.

In my view the killing was even more shocking than that of Jo Cox, as the killer drove 200 miles to do it.


You obviously didn't if that's all the coverage you think there was. It was full front page news in many papers and there were numerous articles about it. You either had your eyes closed to teh coverage or you're being less than honest in your description of it.

53x13
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby 53x13 » 20 Jul 2016, 7:03am

pete75 wrote:
blackbike wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Eh? It was all over the news when it happened and again a couple of weeks ago when the murderer was in court and sentenced. You need to pay a bit more attention to current affairs.


I did pay attention.

That's why I noticed it got no more than quite cursory treatment both when it happened and at conviction.

There was none of the usual 'liberal' analysis of why the crime happened, along with the usual moralising about hate crimes and how awful the UK is.

In my view the killing was even more shocking than that of Jo Cox, as the killer drove 200 miles to do it.


You obviously didn't if that's all the coverage you think there was. It was full front page news in many papers and there were numerous articles about it. You either had your eyes closed to teh coverage or you're being less than honest in your description of it.


Events in Scotland even events as serious as this one rarely get in the Nationals unless there is a terrorist element to the attack.

This was no terrorist event, it was a sectarian killing. No terrorist groups claimed, nor were attributed responsibility. The government likely stepped in with advice to the press to minimise the reporting because at the time there was potential for reprisals and even more sectarian violence. This was a familiar situation in our own sectarian conflict in northern Ireland. My wife has previously studied in Glasgow and is only too keen of the sectarian violence which erupts every time there is a Rangers/Celtic clash.

To try and conflate this tragic event with a terrorist act is extremely disingenuous. Just as trying to conflate the death of Jo Cox in a similar light.


We are a completely multicultural nation: Irish, English, Scots, Polish, French (there are more French living in London than any other expat community in the world), Dutch, Pakistani, German ect ect. There's no rolling the clock back on these facts.

I find much of this discussion unsettling.

This is certainly a thread the moderators should be watching closely.

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mjr
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby mjr » 20 Jul 2016, 11:31am

Going back to Nice - TV showed a copy of the attacker's residence permit, so doesn't that mean he was a non-EU national who passed whatever checks to live in France? As France and the UK currently have broadly harmonised visa processes, is there any reason to suspect he wouldn't have been about as likely to gain UK residency? Trying to hang this on freedom of movement seems absurd.
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Freddie
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby Freddie » 20 Jul 2016, 3:35pm

reohn2 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Borders are a key thing to inhibit terrorism. They can also be used to punish plotters and terrorist sympathisers by withdrawing passports especially in our island.

Al
All of which is a reaction to an action caused by bad illegal decisions taken that overrode peace with war,because we armed an unstable dictator,all for profit,and in the same way we still do with Saudi Arabia and other sick and barbarous regimes.
All of which?...Are ISIS solely a response to western involvement in the Middle East or are they also a product of fundamentalist readings of Islamic texts?

There is much inter-group violence that goes on between Muslims (and other non-Muslim natives) in majority Muslim countries that can have little to do with western involvement in these countries.

When Malala Yousafzai was shot in the head for wanting to continue her schooling, was this to do with western influence? What about when the Taliban target Christian children at a fairground in Pakistan? When ISIS target Shia minorities with bombs or slaughter Yazidi men and boys and imprison and rape the women and female children, has that anything to do with western involvement?

If they are committing these atrocities on non-western targets, then western involvement can't be the only factor.

pwa wrote:Islamist or not, many of these recent "terrorist" attacks, from the murders of Jo Cox and a shopkeeper in Scotland, to the mass murder on the Promenade des Angles, have mental and emotional health causes. In my view Islamism or whatever are outlets for people with violent mental health issues to express their anger. That is a consistent theme. I'm not sure how that helps us deal with the threat, though.
I agree that all of these people likely have mental issues of one shade or another, or they wouldn't act as they do, but to what extent does that make them incapable of taking responsibility for their actions? I think evidence of premeditation usually rules out any plea of clinical insanity in the courts and many of the attacks you describe were premeditated.

Save the murder of Jo Cox, which was by a man with some kind of nationalist ideology, every event you mentioned is notable by having been inspired by a fundamentalist reading of Islam. Much was made of the ideology of the killer of Jo Cox and what influence it may have had on him. When there are many more Islamically inspired terrorist attacks being committed in the west today than ones perpetrated by those with a nationalist ideology (or any other identifiable ideology), should we dismiss the influence of a fundamentalist reading of Islamic texts as being of no relevance?

53x13 wrote:To try and conflate this tragic event with a terrorist act is extremely disingenuous. Just as trying to conflate the death of Jo Cox in a similar light.
I'm not sure I agree.

Surely the point of these attacks, whether they be the one on Jo Cox or the Muslim gentleman in Scotland is to strike terror into hearts and make people act differently, beyond any grievance that the attacker has against the individual. The attacks are not only attacks on an individual, but symbolic and something of a warning to others.

I have to question your use of the word tragic. Tragic brings to mind something unforeseeable and unpreventable, like a natural disaster or some such. I think using it about a situation in which people have been hacked to death, whether one person or several, is not quite right. Grotesque or barbarous seem more fitting.

mjr wrote:Going back to Nice - TV showed a copy of the attacker's residence permit, so doesn't that mean he was a non-EU national who passed whatever checks to live in France? As France and the UK currently have broadly harmonised visa processes, is there any reason to suspect he wouldn't have been about as likely to gain UK residency? Trying to hang this on freedom of movement seems absurd.
What I asked for was input on whether people think increased attacks will affect freedom of movement to the UK post Brexit?

53x13
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby 53x13 » 20 Jul 2016, 3:52pm

Surely the point of these attacks, whether they be the one on Jo Cox or the Muslim gentleman in Scotland is to strike terror into hearts and make people act differently, beyond any grievance that the attacker has against the individual. The attacks are not only attacks on an individual, but symbolic and something of a warning to others.


In what way have these two (non terrorist attacks, no one terror group admitted nor was ascribed responsibility) made anyone change the way they act? They are simply the result of persons with extreme mental illness lashing out at unfortunate and tragic victims.

I find most of what you said a non sequitur.

Tragic they are: unforeseeable and completely unpreventable. I've had experience of mental illness in my own immediate family. People with such illnesses have no control over their actions. They are seriously ill, and have to be treated as such.
Last edited by 53x13 on 20 Jul 2016, 3:54pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mjr
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Re: Islamically motivated terrorism and freedom of movement

Postby mjr » 20 Jul 2016, 3:54pm

Freddie wrote:
mjr wrote:Going back to Nice - TV showed a copy of the attacker's residence permit, so doesn't that mean he was a non-EU national who passed whatever checks to live in France? As France and the UK currently have broadly harmonised visa processes, is there any reason to suspect he wouldn't have been about as likely to gain UK residency? Trying to hang this on freedom of movement seems absurd.
What I asked for was input on whether people think increased attacks will affect freedom of movement to the UK post Brexit?

Yes, you asked for that while suggesting that "stopping freedom of movement to the UK from Europe may be one answer to limiting [Nice-style attacks]", so I'm replying to highlight that freedom of movement seems to have been completely irrelevant to that attack and stopping it probably wouldn't make any difference to such attacks.

Have many recent terrorist attacks in the UK have been by non-UK EU citizens or non-EU citizens using freedom of movement somehow? I think the last one was about 15 years ago.
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