Party Split

[reohn2]

........Don't wanna get fooled again!

Oh! you'd rather be fooled by the right wing Tories,even when the right wing Tories were masquerading as New Labour.
Look at Corbyn's record as an MP and why so many of those Right Wing Tory/New Labour MP's are jumping ship,then ask yourself if you're happy with the way things are or if you want a more equal society?

[reohn2]

I see the,Tories now have a 14 point lead on Labour. The split is doing Labour no favours.

Al

General Election isn't due until 2020 though.
We'll see then.....

[lingy]

All very sad. Look at most countries in the world - they allow a broad centre-right party and a broad centre-left party. Plus, of course, a few further out parties. Our crazy electoral system is producing subtle extremism in both Labour and the Tories. I kind of sympathise with the desire for change from Corbyn supporters because recent Labour has been so timid in the face of such an onslaught from the right. But the solution is wrong and a tolerant, broad church party, would be so much more a lever for change (rather than taking about change). We need some form of proportional representation to stop this lurch to the extremes...happening to the Tories too who, despite what they say, are so far from the decent 'one-nation' Tories of the past.


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

............................
Very disappointed that the live Corbyn v Smith debate became derailed somehow. Had bin watching it live. Doff my hat to both candidates. Only 10 minutes in. What was the great difference betwixt them again? Strange tho: I still have a residing suspicion of Labour as I felt they have betrayed the general GB public. Also,tho they sound reasoned,they can go off topic and not address peoples worries. You can get hypnotised by 'em. Then you forget what your major concerns were,come out muddled!! Don't wanna get fooled again!

That's typical isn't it, I went to a Prof in hospital an after an hour of brainwashing I sat in the car park and thought, what was that about.............................I then decided to help myself.

[reohn2]

That's typical isn't it, I went to a Prof in hospital an after an hour of brainwashing I sat in the car park and thought, what was that about.............................I then decided to help myself.

I'm struggling to understand what that means

[Tangled Metal]

Lingy talks sense, it's what I think but more coherently put/thought out.

In addition to Libby 's thoughts I'd add that I don't like extremes of anything. Whether that's extreme left/right in politics, extremes of temperature, extremes of poverty/wealth...and so the list goes on.

Ideal world ranges of everything would be closer, well as close as possible. Politically I doubt socialists or right wing truly think that way. Centre politics IMHO looks to help as wide a range as possible. Whether that's skewed to business or labour they tend to help more than hard left/right. These extremes tend to favour some over others and the result, IMHO obviously, work to help/represent fewer people.

However crystal ball in hand I doubt 2020 will help anyone. Corbyn Labour won't be a big threat and Tories will move further right. The centre ground majority will have nobody to move this country forward.

[Tangled Metal]

That's typical isn't it, I went to a Prof in hospital an after an hour of brainwashing I sat in the car park and thought, what was that about.............................I then decided to help myself.

I'm struggling to understand what that means

He went to a specialist at hospital who talked technical medically speaking. He didn't understand him. It happens sometimes. The best and brightest in a field can't communicate to us lesser mortals without a translator. At least that's what I think he said. Kind of when a politician answers a question by talking about what he/she wants to using their own language that talks to their followers but everyone else just thinks "eh? What was.that about?" They all do it. Not a straight answer between them.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

That's typical isn't it, I went to a Prof in hospital an after an hour of brainwashing I sat in the car park and
thought, what was that about.............................I then decided to help myself.

I'm struggling to understand what that means

He went to a specialist at hospital who talked technical medically speaking. He didn't understand him. It happens
sometimes. The best and brightest in a field can't communicate to us lesser mortals without a translator. At least
that's what I think he said. Kind of when a politician answers a question by talking about what he/she wants to using
their own language that talks to their followers but everyone else just thinks "eh? What was.that about?" They all do
it. Not a straight answer between them.

OK you could put it like that yes.
I was talking mainly about the disjointed way in which the proceedings at the lab leader face off fell apart.
When lib dem Nick Clegg went into the first face off with cam and brown on TV IIRC.
Clegg looked good because he left out all the personal attacks...................
It fell apart after that with the next election and he resorted to the attacks again.

This is not what we need at all in politics, if only they put that effort into the actual work.......then they might
be qualified in being short listed on the thanks mate brotherhood metal.

I was not bambozzled extately by the NHS Prof just frustrated that I left with nothing, I went for extra info on
phisio and ended up with a face to face head of Pain Management, and probably has a program to reduce costs by
sending me off in a nother direction for the term so I am not a number on a list anymore.
There was no hitec talk just listening mostly but no conclusion, I am not sure what would of happened if I was not so
honest and specific about what I expected, I probably would of left with the same conclusion and then cease my
exercises thinking I am all right now.
Some do just that, I know people who lie to the medics thinking they are smart but just frustrate everyone themselves
and the docs.

I left and decided I better carry on with my phisio exercises and then some, which has kept me pain free.
The main point is " Brainwashing" I have a feeling that marketing and high office work on methods they are taught to
win arguments so they still look good after failures, like if you don't comment or say anything you can never be
blamed for anything can you, I don't work like that but I had Victorian parents.............................

Everyone knows that labour are not doing themselves favours................twenty years was the last statement and
its still in that ball park.
I said it before non of this is doing all of us any good.

[tyreon]

I think I still haven't got over the betrayal that was TB when he took over the Labour Party. It really hurt. And then THAT war. And him and his cohorts are still around today(innocent!),and with the greatest divide between those who have and those that don't. After Thatcher,TB: how cruel can it get. The stuff you have to take!

I think it's me who has the problem. I think I wanted the population to settle at 55 million. Now at 65 million and counting. It appears any growth in the economy must only come through the importation of more people. Fair enough. Just that I'm not too keen on having this place one urbanized sprawl. Also,I rather like other living organisms: trees,hedges,green fileds,birds,bugs etc. As Dutch people said to me(many years ago)'look at all this space(it was in Devon)' The inference being,why not build all over it. Have something productive.

I think I want JC without the 100 million population. As my ideal must involve some discriminative practice(against much?many? of the world who would wish to come here(for a variety of reasons),I guess I am racist or a xenophobe.

Apologies for all my many readers! if my postings are a little obtuse: no longer up for promotion or sitting an exam Also rather short on time.

[Freddie]

As my ideal must involve some discriminative practice(against much?many? of the world who would wish to come here(for a variety of reasons),I guess I am racist or a xenophobe.

Yes, any pride in or concern for your country is xenophobic and racist.

You should cleanse yourself of this sin by saying that you could live and work anywhere in Europe (funny how it is always Europe and not the entire world) and feel just as at home as in your home town. If the UK goes to pot, there is always some other country to flee to and not have any pride in or concern for, until the same thing happens again. Don't be a stick in the mud; remember, wherever you lay your hat!

Of course, you will likely have to be middle class and well educated to take full advantage of this scheme. Those who aren't intelligent enough, and capable and willing to adapt, have only themselves to blame. If the least capable in our society find they cannot buy a home and raise a family on two lots of the minimum wage, then it is nobodies fault but theirs. It is certainly nothing to do with excess labour coming into the country to undercut them. If they cannot achieve a degree level education or do not want to leave their homes to find menial work in another country, then they obviously are not trying hard enough and need to let go of sentimental feelings towards their home.

It is a dog eat dog world. Why be concerned for your own country's people, disadvantaged or not, before the people of anywhere else.

The solution is to have no particular pride in your own country, it is just a fluke of nature that you were born where you were born, pride is stupid (as are borders); do not object to or fight things that will reduce the standard of living in that country, be willing to move at the drop of a hat to somewhere else, if conditions become unfavourable; don't concern yourself with those people who cannot do any of this, they are either bigoted, inept or xenophobic, likely all three. Their ideas are outmoded and if they are incapable of adapting, through lack of intelligence or stubbornness, it is their lookout and the gene pool is better off without them anyway.

[tyreon]

Disparate notes:

I read(today,Independant)that Beppe Grillo is an admirer of Nigel Farage. Make as much of that as you like. His 5 star movement excoriates the European Union and Italian status quo. Has his own rant against some Euro route to nowhere. A sorta HS2 vanity project that will transport 15 MEPs to Brussels at £10k a ticket.

Jobs. Wot Jobs!Low unemployment rate,high SME start-ups. Yes,cos those unemployed or underemployed have no where else to go. Tho I s'pose there's always jobs at SportsDirect around here!

On the plus side investigations into Child Historic Sexual Abuse cases to be closed. Or is it opened? I forget. Anyway,lottsa big ££ to be spent on investigations/reports/legal firms which will confirm very nasty things went on,must not be done again. Further recommendations after another £30 million spent and 10 years gone by: lessons must be learnt,more credence given to victims/young people. In other words the Big O(zero). But the good news again,£100 -£400k jobs available to those higher-ups in the food chain. Lessons for us all from those at the top: You can have your cake and eat it!

And for those befuddled by my posts. Don't worry about it. There's a link-in taken all together.

[kwackers]

Yes, any pride in or concern for your country is xenophobic and racist.

Pride? Pride in what we are or pride in what folk like you want to turn us into?

I'm sure there are some folk who aren't racist and who have genuine concerns about immigration but from where I'm sat you don't usually have to wait long for most to prove that they are actually quite racist...
Let them loosen up a bit and feel they've got your ear and off they go on one...
Frankly I'm bored hearing the "I'm not a racist but" statement over and over.

No need to worry though, as our economy tanks we'll be somewhat less attractive to 'immigrants', certainly if it carries on the way it's going I'm fairly confident a lot of the growing economies in Europe will be quite pleased they don't have to worry about an influx of us Brits!

On a more realist note, I look forward to the cries of anguish from the brexiters when they finally clock that nothing much is going to change.

[Freddie]

Pride? Pride in what we are or pride in what folk like you want to turn us into?

Which is what, exactly? You are always rather vague when it comes to saying anything of substance. Less vague insinuation, more actual points; have the courage of your convictions to explicitly state your position.

I'm sure there are some folk who aren't racist and who have genuine concerns about immigration but from where I'm sat you don't usually have to wait long for most to prove that they are actually quite racist...
Let them loosen up a bit and feel they've got your ear and off they go on one...
Frankly I'm bored hearing the "I'm not a racist but" statement over and over.

Look, where you are sitting in your ivory tower things may be rosy, but you should recognise that other people have differing viewpoints that are reasonable. I know that for those of you on the far left facts come after feelings, but it is possible to hold different (non far-left) views, based upon the facts, for reasons beyond bigotry.

You are tired of the "I'm not a racist, but" argument, I'm tired of your "everyone who wants to control immigration is a racist" argument. Seeing as they are equally tiresome, maybe you could give the latter a rest, as that slur seems to be the extent of your argument against those that think immigration should be controlled. It does nothing to further the conversation, it only attempts to goad people into some kind of emotional response, and I think you are better than that. I certainly hope so, anyway.

Personally, I think the only thing we can say for certain is not that anybody who criticises mass immigration is a racist, but that anybody who thinks limitless immigration is somehow only ever a good thing, is either rather simple (and I don't think you are) or afraid of committing a thought crime and being negatively judged by others because of it.

[lingy]

Personally, I think arguing for a control on immigration is reasonable and not racist per se. But, as stated above, many arguing strongly that way recently so seem to have been racist.
But a lot simply do not want ever increasing population growth. IMHO these people should have continued to argue for change within the EU. They have thrown the baby out with the bath water and we will all pay a heavy price now. Still can barely believe it what we have done to our country. but I do understand people's non-racist immigration fears.


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

[kwackers]

Pride? Pride in what we are or pride in what folk like you want to turn us into?

Which is what, exactly? You are always rather vague when it comes to saying anything of substance. Less vague insinuation, more actual points; have the courage of your convictions to explicitly state your position.

I could say the same about you.
But fyi do I want to live in a country that's fair, welcoming and gives everyone a fair crack at the whip or do I want to raise the draw bridge, accept whatever terms are laid at our feet and spend all my time suspiciously looking at 'darkies' and anyone with a funny accent and putting up with folk who think that casual racism is 'OK'?
Why you need that spelling out I've no idea.

Look, where you are sitting in your ivory tower things may be rosy, but you should recognise that other people have differing viewpoints that are reasonable. I know that for those of you on the far left facts come after feelings, but it is possible to hold different (non far-left) views, based upon the facts, for reasons beyond bigotry.

Yeah and apart from carefully constructed arguments on the internet to avoid sounding racist I've yet to actually meet a 'real' brexiter (and the odd leaver) on the street who when given the chance doesn't make one or more racist arguments. What I find fairly interesting is most don't even know they're being racist, such is the casual abandonment with which they make their statements.

You are tired of the "I'm not a racist, but" argument, I'm tired of your "everyone who wants to control immigration is a racist" argument. Seeing as they are equally tiresome, maybe you could give the latter a rest, as that slur seems to be the extent of your argument against those that think immigration should be controlled. It does nothing to further the conversation, it only attempts to goad people into some kind of emotional response, and I think you are better than that. I certainly hope so, anyway.

Then you should pick a fight with the vast numbers of people on the internet, folk who are interviewed for TV, folk who have recently been filmed making racist statements or shouting abuse etc etc.
Difficult to make a case for your statement when 'ordinary' folk all over Britain are destroying it for you.

But hey, if you want to explain how the economics of stopping immigration, how the economy will grow, how the number of jobs will increase, how folk who currently claim they can't get a job will take these fab new jobs (despite employers claiming they can't fill positions) and perhaps list your credentials in order to support your case then I'm all ears because frankly so far the remain predictions are holding together pretty well.

As a footnote I'm frankly staggered that anyone believes the issue is immigration as opposed to growing inequality, lack of investment resulting in the destruction of industries with the loss of a whole sector of jobs, governments that have consistently blocked the EU's attempts at fairer employment laws or opted out of those they don't like.
Everything that is wrong with this country can be laid firmly down at the feet of government.