** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 3 Nov 2016, 12:02pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:Happily, the referendum result has poisoned our relationship with the EU, probably beyond repair.

To take such pleasure from conflict! ...are you a divorce lawyer?


We always have political conflict, and I'm pleased when that conflict produces what I want, in this case Brexit.

I can separate political conflict from personal conflict.

The ruling today pleases me to some extent. The harder the losers of the referendum fight Brexit the more they reveal their essentially intolerant, arrogant, undemocratic natures, and their contempt for the will of the people. The electorate will notice this and act accordingly.

Psamathe
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby Psamathe » 3 Nov 2016, 12:04pm

blackbike wrote:...The harder the losers of the referendum fight Brexit the more they reveal their essentially intolerant, arrogant, undemocratic natures, and their contempt for the will of the people. The electorate will notice this and act accordingly.

You think Sovereignty of Parliament undemocratic ? Even the Leave campaign considered Sovereignty of Parliament a crucial reason as to why the UK should leave the EU.

Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 3 Nov 2016, 12:16pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bovlomov
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby bovlomov » 3 Nov 2016, 12:09pm

blackbike wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:Happily, the referendum result has poisoned our relationship with the EU, probably beyond repair.

To take such pleasure from conflict! ...are you a divorce lawyer?


We always have political conflict, and I'm pleased when that conflict produces what I want, in this case Brexit.

I can separate political conflict from personal conflict.

The ruling today pleases me to some extent. The harder the losers of the referendum fight Brexit the more they reveal their essentially intolerant, arrogant, undemocratic natures, and their contempt for the will of the people. The electorate will notice this and act accordingly.

Sorry to keep going back to this, but you've said that don't mind politicians telling lies. So it shouldn't bother you if MPs have lied to us about the meaning of the referendum. By your logic, if parliament thwarts Brexit, then Brexit voters were mugs for believing the referendum mattered.

...(then one of those phrases you like to use)... They can lump it! Get over it!

ElCampesino
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby ElCampesino » 3 Nov 2016, 12:10pm

Quite. Times have changed and I very much doubt that there's still a majority in favour of Brexit.

Today's decision will give constituents time to lobby their PMs, which in their vote, will hopefully reflect the current mood rather than the one that led to the June vote.

EC

blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 3 Nov 2016, 12:18pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:
bovlomov wrote:To take such pleasure from conflict! ...are you a divorce lawyer?


We always have political conflict, and I'm pleased when that conflict produces what I want, in this case Brexit.

I can separate political conflict from personal conflict.

The ruling today pleases me to some extent. The harder the losers of the referendum fight Brexit the more they reveal their essentially intolerant, arrogant, undemocratic natures, and their contempt for the will of the people. The electorate will notice this and act accordingly.

Sorry to keep going back to this, but you've said that don't mind politicians telling lies. So it shouldn't bother you if MPs have lied to us about the meaning of the referendum. By your logic, if parliament thwarts Brexit, then Brexit voters were mugs for believing the referendum mattered.

...(then one of those phrases you like to use)... They can lump it! Get over it!


I'm not bothered by MPs telling lies because the UK's people can get rid of them if they so choose, and if people choose to elect a person who lies then who am I to say they can't?

That's why I'm glad we are leaving the EU. I can't get rid of a Polish MEP or a German Brussels bureaucrat who lie and have a say in EU made laws I have to obey.


Brexit is shaping up quite nicely. It presents many opportunities for the losers to further ruin their reputations by showing just how much they hate democracy and the will of the people, and it looks like they are going to take all those opportunities in the same foolish and incompetent way they conducted their referendum campaign.

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bovlomov
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby bovlomov » 3 Nov 2016, 12:23pm

blackbike wrote:I'm not bothered by MPs telling lies because the UK's people can get rid of them if they so choose, and if people choose to elect a person who lies then who am I to say they can't?
Fair enough.

That's why I'm glad we are leaving the EU. .
But aren't we discussing how lying politicians might stop us leaving?

Or are you thinking of a long game in which, if the MPs thwart Brexit, the people will get rid of them and Brexit will happen anyway?

Psamathe
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby Psamathe » 3 Nov 2016, 12:26pm

blackbike wrote:...It presents many opportunities for the losers to further ruin their reputations by showing just how much they hate democracy and the will of the people, and it looks like they are going to take all those opportunities in the same foolish and incompetent way they conducted their referendum campaign.

Seems to the the Executive who are behaving undemocratically be attempting to bypass Parliament. Remember Leave Campaign's "Sovereignty of Parliament" arguments and those arguments were for Sovereignty of Parliament not for a Prime Minister appointed by a few hundred people to take over such powers (un-consitutionally).

Ian

mercalia
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby mercalia » 3 Nov 2016, 12:42pm

well Boris dropped a freudian slip

"Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has said the UK will make a "Titanic success" of Brexit.

He made the remark as he was presenting an award to George Osborne at the Spectator magazine's Parliamentarian of the Year ceremony in London. "

:lol:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37858143

blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 3 Nov 2016, 12:49pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:I'm not bothered by MPs telling lies because the UK's people can get rid of them if they so choose, and if people choose to elect a person who lies then who am I to say they can't?
Fair enough.

That's why I'm glad we are leaving the EU. .
But aren't we discussing how lying politicians might stop us leaving?

Or are you thinking of a long game in which, if the MPs thwart Brexit, the people will get rid of them and Brexit will happen anyway?


Not the long game. Just the two to three years which Brexit was always going to take.

Brexit is an important event in UK history because it frees us from a bloc which has changed into something we never agreed to join back in 1973, but perhaps more importantly it has served to expose just how detached from the lives of ordinary people our political establishment has become.

The obstructive antics of leading losers are just the last futile attempts of an old order who can't cope with change and want 20th century solutions to 21st century problems.

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bovlomov
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby bovlomov » 3 Nov 2016, 1:00pm

blackbike wrote:Not the long game. Just the two to three years which Brexit was always going to take.

Brexit is an important event in UK history because it frees us from a bloc which has changed into something we never agreed to join back in 1973, but perhaps more importantly it has served to expose just how detached from the lives of ordinary people our political establishment has become.

The obstructive antics of leading losers are just the last futile attempts of an old order who can't cope with change and want 20th century solutions to 21st century problems.

Sometimes you seem admirably fatalistic. That is, you trust the people to decide, and overall, even if they are misled or make bad decisions, all will turn out well in the end. Have I got that about right?

Does that mean that you were fatalistic about the past decades of EU membership, where by fair means or foul the British people continually elected a pro-EU parliament?

I ask because you seem quite confident that the outcome will be to your satisfaction. What if it isn't?

blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 3 Nov 2016, 1:15pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:Not the long game. Just the two to three years which Brexit was always going to take.

Brexit is an important event in UK history because it frees us from a bloc which has changed into something we never agreed to join back in 1973, but perhaps more importantly it has served to expose just how detached from the lives of ordinary people our political establishment has become.

The obstructive antics of leading losers are just the last futile attempts of an old order who can't cope with change and want 20th century solutions to 21st century problems.

Sometimes you seem admirably fatalistic. That is, you trust the people to decide, and overall, even if they are misled or make bad decisions, all will turn out well in the end. Have I got that about right?

Does that mean that you were fatalistic about the past decades of EU membership, where by fair means or foul the British people continually elected a pro-EU parliament?

I ask because you seem quite confident that the outcome will be to your satisfaction. What if it isn't?


I have confidence in the wisdom of the UK's people and confidence that that our government will do their bidding on this matter.

The way things are shaping up I'd say the choices are now between hard Brexit or UDI. When fights get dirty the stronger side usually becomes less sympathetic to the weaker one.

The leading losers don't grasp what a mistake they are making by their behaviour which is simply a continuance of their shambolic referendum campaign. I always thought that those with strong pro-EU views seemed irrational and full of idealistic dogma, but their renewed zeal after their defeat has something cultish about it like some fringe religion.

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bovlomov
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby bovlomov » 3 Nov 2016, 1:21pm

blackbike wrote:I have confidence in the wisdom of the UK's people and confidence that that our government will do their bidding on this matter.

But have you had the same confidence in the past? As I said, the wisdom of the UK's people has seen a large pro-EU majority in parliament for decades.

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661-Pete
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby 661-Pete » 3 Nov 2016, 1:28pm

Who are these 'people' who keep on being referred to? Are they some species of utterly immutable, immovable object, never to be allowed to deliver a different or even modified result? Is that how General Election polls have gone, over the past few centuries?

I remind folks that these same 'people' (well, their parents and grandparents, at any rate), delivered a resounding "Remain" vote in 1975. Oddly enough, on that occasion I voted "Leave".

I'm not offering any suggestion that I'm about to change my mind now, needless to say - but I'm sure there are many supporters of brexit who, on seeing the unholy mess this preposterous plebiscite has delivered us into, must be quite likely to reconsider....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 3 Nov 2016, 1:30pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:I have confidence in the wisdom of the UK's people and confidence that that our government will do their bidding on this matter.

But have you had the same confidence in the past? As I said, the wisdom of the UK's people has seen a large pro-EU majority in parliament for decades.


I always accept the will of the people. I'm a democrat. When votes don't go my way I don't say they are invalid because my opponents appealed to stupid, ill-informed people.

The only chance we've had to vote for an anti-EU party during the whole of our membership was for Michael Foot's Labour Party in 1983.

And even the most ardent anti-EU people in the country were not stupid enough to vote for that loony left shambles just because they wanted to leave the EU.

Otherwise everyone has had a choice of two main parties which supported EU membership.

As soon as we were given a single issue vote on the EU we let both those main parties know that we want out, and as quickly as possible please.

mikeonabike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby mikeonabike » 3 Nov 2016, 1:30pm

bovlomov wrote:
blackbike wrote:Happily, the referendum result has poisoned our relationship with the EU, probably beyond repair.

To take such pleasure from conflict! ...are you a divorce lawyer?
It rather goes against the line that it's all the stupid EU's fault if the UK can't negotiate a cake-and-eat-it-deal. But the truth will out.

The parliamentary arithmetic will be interesting. The government will need the support of Labour MPs representing constituencies which voted Out. That should give Labour some power over the type of Brexit deal we negotiate. But will the extremists in the government be prepared to compromise?