** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Paulatic]

Fuel prices have gone down because thee price of oil has fallen that's all.

Where do you live? Diesel at the pumps has risen by nearly 20p/litre here since June.

[pete75]

Fuel prices have gone down because thee price of oil has fallen that's all.

Where do you live? Diesel at the pumps has risen by nearly 20p/litre here since June.

Lincolnshire. It went up by a similar amount here but now it's come down to 112 at Asda and Morrison. Due to fall in oil prices and the fall in the dollar since Trump was elected.

[PDQ Mobile]

We haven't even left yet.
Everything on a trade basis is exactly the same as before(except for the weak pound). But only at the moment.
Something unpleasant may hit the fan when when we do though.

This was on the BBC Wales page:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-36849224

It seems that the promises of the 20th of June may also be fan hitting material!! Probably of a bovine variety! (seemed apt )

Those promises here:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36575503

They really don't have the slightest clue do they?

[mercalia]

so now its article 127 and not just 50. seems like its really 127 is the one thats the most important?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38126899

some thing tells me we wont be leaving the EU for a very long time

[mjr]

so now its article 127 and not just 50. seems like its really 127 is the one thats the most important?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38126899

some thing tells me we wont be leaving the EU for a very long time

Not really: article 127 is the exit process in the EEA treaty, signed in Porto in 1992. Nothing to do with leaving the EU. There has been no referendum on leaving the EEA. May's government has no mandate for leaving the EEA.

There are other non-EU states in the EEA (Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, plus it's open to Switzerland and any future members of EFTA or the EU IIRC) and membership of the EEA is not automatic upon joining the EU - Croatia still isn't fully in the EEA, despite joining the EU in 2013.

If May's government gets away with leaving the EEA on the basis of the EU referendum vote, expect it to attempt to withdraw from other non-EU European agreements: the Council of Europe (and hence its European Court of Human Rights) being maybe the most likely.

[Psamathe]

so now its article 127 and not just 50. seems like its really 127 is the one thats the most important?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38126899

some thing tells me we wont be leaving the EU for a very long time

Not really: article 127 is the exit process in the EEA treaty, signed in Porto in 1992. Nothing to do with leaving the EU. There has been no referendum on leaving the EEA. May's government has no mandate for leaving the EEA.

There are other non-EU states in the EEA (Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, plus it's open to Switzerland and any future members of EFTA or the EU IIRC) and membership of the EEA is not automatic upon joining the EU - Croatia still isn't fully in the EEA, despite joining the EU in 2013.

If May's government gets away with leaving the EEA on the basis of the EU referendum vote, expect it to attempt to withdraw from other non-EU European agreements: the Council of Europe (and hence its European Court of Human Rights) being maybe the most likely.

EEA does not have the same strict Freedom of Movement requirements either !!

I agree that neither Government nor Parliament has any mandate to leave the EEA. The only question the referendum asked was about the EU. So they really cannot start using the answer to the EU question as a mandate to start leaving all sorts of other things that were not asked about.

Ian

[syklist]

EEA does not have the same strict Freedom of Movement requirements either !!

Are you sure? If so, then that would mean that Norway has implemented freedom of movement just for the fun of it.

"EU/EØS-borgere har rett til å arbeide, studere og bo i Norge. Alle EU/EØS-borgere som skal bo i Norge i mer enn tre måneder må registrere seg."

Which translates as (my translation feel free to correct if you think it is wrong):

"EU/EAA citizens have the right to work, study and live in Norway. All EU/EEA citizens who wish to live in Norway for more than three months must register with the authorities."

[mercalia]

I think the EEA ( 127) DOES has the strict movement condition if I read the BBC article I mentioned right?

[mjr]

I think the EEA ( 127) DOES has the strict movement condition if I read the BBC article I mentioned right?

http://www.efta.int/legal-texts/eea and https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Consolid ... nd_Capital if you want to check for yourself, but it probably depends what you call "strict". The EEA Agreement Part III Chapters 1 and 2 and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union/Title IV: Free Movement of Persons, Services and Capital Chapters 1 and 2 are very similar wording, but TFEU Articles 46, 47, 50 and 53 part (2) seem to have no equivalent in Part III of the EEA treaty.

[Psamathe]

EEA does not have the same strict Freedom of Movement requirements either !!

Are you sure? If so, then that would mean that Norway has implemented freedom of movement just for the fun of it.

"EU/EØS-borgere har rett til å arbeide, studere og bo i Norge. Alle EU/EØS-borgere som skal bo i Norge i mer enn tre måneder må registrere seg."

Which translates as (my translation feel free to correct if you think it is wrong):

"EU/EAA citizens have the right to work, study and live in Norway. All EU/EEA citizens who wish to live in Norway for more than three months must register with the authorities."

Being in the EEA and not a member of the EU requires Freedom of Movement but allows for "Discretionary control". For example Liechtenstein uses clauses in the EEA agreement to restrict the movement of persons. Article 112(1) of the EEA Agreement reads “If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113” The restrictions used by Liechtenstein are further reinforced by Protocol 15 (Article 5-7) of the EEA Agreement. This allows Liechtenstein to keep specific restrictions on the free movement of people. These have been kept in place by what is known as the EEA Council (1). Freedom of Movement for an non-EU member but EEA member includes terms that any migrant shall not become a burden on the social assistance of the hosting state (in practice the limit is set at 3 months initial residence)

Article 7. 1b(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host member state during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host member state. (3) No right is absolute and neither is freedom of movement within the EEA nations after they have assessed the relevant legislation and applied it according to their own interpretation of what freedom of movement means.

The EEA agreement is actually far more flexible that EU membership in many regards. for example, Iceland imposing capital movement controls in 2008 (in response to the financial crash).

Also, EEA members (who ar enot EU members) are outside the EU Treaty Article 6 which states "The Union shall accede to to to the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms" - so not covered by that either.

It does not require EEA states to implement restrictions on Freedom of Movement (which is an economic benefit so most sensible countries would not) but it does allow more flexibility. So it would meet Saint Theresa's requirement of restrictions on Freedom of Movement whilst also allowing UK business access to the EU markets, allowing the City to keep all its passporting.

However, and this is a BIG BIG "however, it would not meet the ideological requirements of Farage, Fox, Rees-Mogg, IDS, Davies, etc.

So good (or better) for the UK but not good for a few very wealthy privileged few who hold ideology over the interests of the country.

Ian

[blackbike]

Juncker tells Euronews that he thinks it is 'not wise' for EU countries to organise in-out referendums because he 'might be concerned about the final result'.

Why is he worried when the benefits of EU membership are blatantly obvious to everyone except a few stupid, racist, misled Brits?

http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/26/glob ... ident-jean

[PDQ Mobile]

Juncker tells Euronews that he thinks it is 'not wise' for EU countries to organise in-out referendums because he 'might be concerned about the final result'.

Why is he worried when the benefits of EU membership are blatantly obvious to everyone except a few stupid, racist, misled Brits?

http://www.euronews.com/2016/11/26/glob ... ident-jean

You are too hard on yourself methinks.

But I do think probably "misled".

I still don't fully understand why though?
In that I don't understand the agenda of UKIP etc.
My belief was always that reform could be sucessfully achieved around the EU table.
It's certainly a very big mess now though.

[Psamathe]

So German electorate is now turning against the UK getting a lenient settlement

Brexit: Germans want Angela Merkel to offer UK 'harsh exit negotiations'

Fifty-eight per cent of the public think Berlin should offer no compromises over Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union, the Korber Foundation revealed.

And Chairman May's attempts to bypass the EU "no notice, no negotiation" has also failed

Brexit: Theresa May's call for deal on EU migrant rights 'blocked by Angela Merkel'

Since the EU referendum, leaders of other member states have repeatedly warned that they will not engage in any form of negotiation until the UK Government triggers Article 50 – the untested protocol for leaving the union.

So UK not doing well and prospects looking worse all the time. And our politicians still wont listen and still drive forward their own ideological aims whatever the cost to the UK.

Ian

[syklist]

So UK not doing well and prospects looking worse all the time. And our politicians still wont listen and still drive forward their own ideological aims whatever the cost to the UK.

More of the same from the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... t-strategy

[blackbike]

In other EU news

Slovakia decides not to recognise Islam as a state religion.

In May, Slovakia’s prime minister Robert Fico said “Islam has no place” in the country shortly after regaining the premiership for the third time.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 49646.html

Thank goodness we are leaving an organisation which has members like that.