** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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meic
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby meic » 6 Dec 2016, 4:30pm

Flinders wrote:What do you think about this one

EU national with one UK parent, came here to live when about 8 years old, now over 50. Earns well more than national average, never been out of work, pays tax via PAYE, never claimed any benefits, highly qualified, pivotal technical role in the UK for an internationally owned manufacturing company supporting a lot of good jobs here. Governor of a local school.

vs.

UK born and bred, in and out of work, in their case because of their own fault (not usually the case, but let's say it is here) been to jail a few times, hates immigrants. Never done any voluntary work except when directed to by a judge as punishment.

Which would you rather have living next door to you? Who contributes more to the economy? Should the first one be 'sent home' to a country they have not lived in for over 40 years?

I think it's time we thought about people as individuals, not as 'immigrants vs. people who were born here'. Immigration is simply a red herring when it comes to what is wrong with the UK.

You are talking about residents, not immigrants. Both of those residents might well think that we dont want any more immigrants.
Yma o Hyd

tyreon
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby tyreon » 6 Dec 2016, 5:59pm

One of the benefits to biz is the casualised workforce: zero hrs, short term contracts. Not very nice I would say. Still, for a migrant better pay than back in Bucharest. Being 30 and single also helps...flexible, adaptable, willing to settle anywhere in the country and share a room. Unfortunately these jobs are located in the least prosperous parts of the country so that once again the jams take the hit with pressure on their roads and services and pay

On the positive side,because of the excess labour getting helpers in Richmond has never been easier. And migrants add vibrancy and texture to the neighbourhood when waiting or dining out.

The more people to London the more house prices rise.

Lower house prices may come thru building on green belt land

kwackers
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby kwackers » 6 Dec 2016, 8:49pm

tyreon wrote:One of the benefits to biz is the casualised workforce: zero hrs, short term contracts. Not very nice I would say.

We could put a stop to that tomorrow, nothing to do with the EU or immigrants. We simply choose not to, and if we're out we'll continue to choose not to.
The turkeys vote for Christmas every 5 years in this country. (And complain the other 4)

djnotts
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby djnotts » 6 Dec 2016, 9:21pm

"You are talking about residents, not immigrants. Both of those residents might well think that we dont want any more immigrants."

But only the first one (EU national) will be deported.

blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 6 Dec 2016, 9:23pm

kwackers wrote:
tyreon wrote:One of the benefits to biz is the casualised workforce: zero hrs, short term contracts. Not very nice I would say.

We could put a stop to that tomorrow, nothing to do with the EU or immigrants. We simply choose not to, and if we're out we'll continue to choose not to.


It isn't quite that simple.

If the situation was easy to remedy there would have been no reason for Jack Straw to describe Labour's decision to allow free movement of workers from the new EU countries to the UK in 2004 as a 'spectacular mistake'.

That blunder was probably the main cause of Leave's wonderful win in the referendum. It is thanks to Mr Farage that we had that vote, because if the two main parties had had their way then there would have been no way for millions of people to effectively register their dissatisfaction at such a catastrophic and naïve political miscalculation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24924219

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meic
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby meic » 7 Dec 2016, 9:06am

djnotts wrote:"You are talking about residents, not immigrants. Both of those residents might well think that we dont want any more immigrants."

But only the first one (EU national) will be deported.


Nobody with any significant say in matters has supported deportation of existing residents.
Not even UKIP.
Not even Blackbike has suggested it!

The only people mentioning deportation are those who are creating a red herring and those who are falling for it.
Yma o Hyd

SpannerGeek
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby SpannerGeek » 7 Dec 2016, 9:33am

meic wrote:
djnotts wrote:"You are talking about residents, not immigrants. Both of those residents might well think that we dont want any more immigrants."

But only the first one (EU national) will be deported.


Nobody with any significant say in matters has supported deportation of existing residents.
Not even UKIP.
Not even Blackbike has suggested it!

The only people mentioning deportation are those who are creating a red herring and those who are falling for it.


I think that's a fair analysis of current anxieties. But many Polish people I socialise with are genuinely worried about being sent home. Many of whom have made homes and families and good businesses here.

What colour of government will be in play in the UK this time next year, I've no idea but article 50 will almost certainly trigger a snap General election, and we know from recent history after that, anything could, and likely will happen.

pete75
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby pete75 » 7 Dec 2016, 3:22pm

meic wrote:
djnotts wrote:"You are talking about residents, not immigrants. Both of those residents might well think that we dont want any more immigrants."

But only the first one (EU national) will be deported.


Nobody with any significant say in matters has supported deportation of existing residents.
Not even UKIP.
Not even Blackbike has suggested it!

The only people mentioning deportation are those who are creating a red herring and those who are falling for it.


Theresa May is refusing to guarantee their right to stay. If they end up having no right to stay then deportation is what would happen. It's likely they will be used as a bargaining chip in any negotiations.

Psamathe
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 3:52pm

pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:
djnotts wrote:"You are talking about residents, not immigrants. Both of those residents might well think that we dont want any more immigrants."

But only the first one (EU national) will be deported.


Nobody with any significant say in matters has supported deportation of existing residents.
Not even UKIP.
Not even Blackbike has suggested it!

The only people mentioning deportation are those who are creating a red herring and those who are falling for it.


Theresa May is refusing to guarantee their right to stay. If they end up having no right to stay then deportation is what would happen. It's likely they will be used as a bargaining chip in any negotiations.

I don't expect them to be a "bargaining chip" (as in "we'll let them stay if you allow us to e.g. keep The City in London"). I think it will just be about establishing who has what rights and all based on reciprocity. So EU e.g. decides that only UK citizens resident in EU for 5 years retain right to stay then UK applies the same rules to their citizens or maybe only those citizens resident before the referendum retain the right to residency. I doubt that people who emigrate the day before the UK leaves the EU would retain the right of residency so some cut-off date needs to be negotiated. Similarly rules about residency need to be agreed in that at the moment there are constraints on Freedom of Movement and UK/EU needs to agree that those same constraints apply to people "being allowed to stay" or what rules/constraints apply. Much as I dislike/disagree with Chairman May it would be daft of her to guarantee residence rights at this point (and the EU quite rightly wont start negotiating until they have formally been notified the UK intends to leave (Article 50)).

Ian

blackbike
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby blackbike » 7 Dec 2016, 4:51pm

SpannerGeek wrote:

I think that's a fair analysis of current anxieties. But many Polish people I socialise with are genuinely worried about being sent home. Many of whom have made homes and families and good businesses here.



I see nothing wrong in EU people being asked to leave if the final agreement between the UK's elected government and the EU removes their right to live here, just as I see nothing wrong in them being allowed to stay if that's what the agreement permits.

This isn't a matter of right or wrong, but of politics, economics and finance.

I will accept the government's decision and if I am unhappy with it I'll speak out and vote accordingly at election time.

International agreements are not set in stone. They can be ended or altered. Everyone knows that, including the thousands of people who came here after 2004 when an international agreement did change and they were granted the previously unavailable right to live and work in the UK. People who live in a foreign country need to respect the laws of that country, and if those laws are altered to say they have to leave, then so be it. They must accept that change just as they accepted the previous one which allowed them to come in the first place. The EU is composed of safe, first world countries so there are no human rights implications in asking them to leave if that's what our elected government decides.

Even if it happens, which is not certain or even likely, ending the right of EU people to live and work here would hardly be a huge departure from a long held right sanctified and dignified by the passing of time. Those rights have only existed for a short time, and only since 2004 in the case of newer EU member states. The UK does not extend those rights to the vast majority of the world's population, so removing the rights for EU people would simply mean we revert to treating them in the same way as we treat Americans, Australians, Indians, Nigerians and lots of other people in terms of immigration and employment rights. If anything this would be a move towards fairness and away from discriminating in favour of people from a few, overwhelmingly white countries with only about 7% of the world's population.

I'd have no problem with being asked to leave a country if its laws on residence and employment of foreigners changed. I wouldn't dream of expecting the government of a foreign, sovereign nation to base its laws around my needs and desires. Its duty is to its own citizens first and foremost, and then to refugees from dangerous places. There is no obligation to anyone else.

Psamathe
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 5:29pm

blackbike wrote:
SpannerGeek wrote:I think that's a fair analysis of current anxieties. But many Polish people I socialise with are genuinely worried about being sent home. Many of whom have made homes and families and good businesses here.

I see nothing wrong in EU people being asked to leave if the final agreement between the UK's elected government and the EU removes their right to live here, just as I see nothing wrong in them being allowed to stay if that's what the agreement permits.
...

I do wonder how many people would even be impacted by this as I understood that after 5 years legal residency you can apply for citizenship (subject to language, etc. skills/knowledge). So any EU citizen legally in the UK for more that 5 years who wants to stay would have a route available to them just as British citizens living in the EU have similar rights (many using the 5 years but some a bit longer).

So only affects people living in UK for less than 5 years (legally) or those who've been here for more than 5 years and not bothered to learn the language/culture/etc.

And I expect that even in an extreme case where no automatic rights were granted, those EU citizens already resident in the UK would not be blocked from applying for residency (just as anybody from any country can apply for) and most would have a strong application (already have employment, already paying tax/NI, already have accommodation, already demonstrated they understand the way the UK works, etc.).

Ian

pete75
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby pete75 » 7 Dec 2016, 7:03pm

Psamathe wrote:
pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:
Nobody with any significant say in matters has supported deportation of existing residents.
Not even UKIP.
Not even Blackbike has suggested it!

The only people mentioning deportation are those who are creating a red herring and those who are falling for it.


Theresa May is refusing to guarantee their right to stay. If they end up having no right to stay then deportation is what would happen. It's likely they will be used as a bargaining chip in any negotiations.

I don't expect them to be a "bargaining chip" (as in "we'll let them stay if you allow us to e.g. keep The City in London").

Ian


Liam Fox says the status of EU nationals living in Britain is "one of our main cards" in Brexit bargaining and cannot be guaranteed. He is one of the main Brexit negotiators. To call them "one of our main cards" leads one to think they will be used for bargaining.

Vorpal
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby Vorpal » 7 Dec 2016, 7:13pm

Psamathe wrote:I do wonder how many people would even be impacted by this as I understood that after 5 years legal residency you can apply for citizenship (subject to language, etc. skills/knowledge). So any EU citizen legally in the UK for more that 5 years who wants to stay would have a route available to them just as British citizens living in the EU have similar rights (many using the 5 years but some a bit longer).

So only affects people living in UK for less than 5 years (legally) or those who've been here for more than 5 years and not bothered to learn the language/culture/etc.

And I expect that even in an extreme case where no automatic rights were granted, those EU citizens already resident in the UK would not be blocked from applying for residency (just as anybody from any country can apply for) and most would have a strong application (already have employment, already paying tax/NI, already have accommodation, already demonstrated they understand the way the UK works, etc.).

Ian

There may be EU citizens who wish to continue living in the UK and do not want to become British citizens, perhaps because they come from a country that doesn't permit dual citizenship.

I will soon have been Norway for 5 years. I have done my best to learn the language and culture. I will take a Norwegian test next year, and apply for permanent residency, but I don't intend to become a Norwegian citizen, as they do not allow dual citizenship, except in some limited circumstances.

Frankly, I'm a little worried about my status. I live and work in Norway as a British citizen. I don't, in the least blame citizens of other EU countries from worrying about their status in the UK, especially if they are being used as bargaining chips. :evil:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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pete75
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby pete75 » 7 Dec 2016, 7:26pm

blackbike wrote:
Even if it happens, which is not certain or even likely, ending the right of EU people to live and work here would hardly be a huge departure from a long held right sanctified and dignified by the passing of time. Those rights have only existed for a short time, and only since 2004 in the case of newer EU member states. The UK does not extend those rights to the vast majority of the world's population, so removing the rights for EU people would simply mean we revert to treating them in the same way as we treat Americans, Australians, Indians, Nigerians and lots of other people in terms of immigration and employment rights. If anything this would be a move towards fairness and away from discriminating in favour of people from a few, overwhelmingly white countries with only about 7% of the world's population.

I'd have no problem with being asked to leave a country if its laws on residence and employment of foreigners changed. I wouldn't dream of expecting the government of a foreign, sovereign nation to base its laws around my needs and desires. Its duty is to its own citizens first and foremost, and then to refugees from dangerous places. There is no obligation to anyone else.


Yeah but if that happens all the geriatric British living in Spain, Malta, Cyprus etc will be sent back here. Who will look after them when all the east Europeans working in the elderly care industry have been expelled.

People from the four nations you mention are not all treated in identical ways concerning immigration and employment rights in the UK - I think you'll find it far harder fro folk from India or Nigeria than Australia or the USA. The reason a citizen of say France or Germany can come here to live and work is because a UK citizen can go live and work over there. It's because of this reciprocity that EU nationals can come here easily. Nothing to do with prejudice as you suggest.

It's wrong that someone should be expelled after being allowed to legally settle in a country, maybe marry,buy a house, raise a family start a business etc. It's what Idi Amin did to Ugandan Asians in 1972. Even Nigel Farage thinks this wrong as, apparently, do the majority of Brexit supporters.

You talk about things being sanctified and dignified by time but, since the expulsion of the Jews by King Edward the First, it's long been sanctified in Britain that once someone has been legally allowed to settle here without being given a time limit they will not be expelled unless found guilty of serious crime and sometimes not even then.

Psamathe
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Re: Theresa May's 'Brexit means Brexit' catchphrase is meaningless, Tory minister admits

Postby Psamathe » 7 Dec 2016, 7:55pm

Vorpal wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I do wonder how many people would even be impacted by this as I understood that after 5 years legal residency you can apply for citizenship (subject to language, etc. skills/knowledge). So any EU citizen legally in the UK for more that 5 years who wants to stay would have a route available to them just as British citizens living in the EU have similar rights (many using the 5 years but some a bit longer).

So only affects people living in UK for less than 5 years (legally) or those who've been here for more than 5 years and not bothered to learn the language/culture/etc.

And I expect that even in an extreme case where no automatic rights were granted, those EU citizens already resident in the UK would not be blocked from applying for residency (just as anybody from any country can apply for) and most would have a strong application (already have employment, already paying tax/NI, already have accommodation, already demonstrated they understand the way the UK works, etc.).

Ian

There may be EU citizens who wish to continue living in the UK and do not want to become British citizens, perhaps because they come from a country that doesn't permit dual citizenship.

I thought it was relatively few EU countries where there are "complications". Spain (but there are exceptions), a few don't allow it other than with EU & NATO countries (so that would be OK), some tolerate it, some require relinquishing their existing citizenship (which cannot be lost to relinquish the UK citizenship and you get your old citizenship back).

I'm not suggesting it is an answer but it is an option. I understand many UK citizens living in the EU are applying for citizenship already. And for somebody who has established their life in the UK it means they do have a "Plan B" (if some politicians treat that aspect of the negotiations irresponsibly).

I'm also not suggesting we don't allow EU residents to remain in the UK, just that I don't think it is the major big deal affecting vast numbers that maybe Dr Fox thinks it is. In some respects I think another aspect is the impact on people who were planning on emigrating and whose plans have now suddenly been destroyed (e.g. retiring early to move and live elsewhere in the EU).

Ian