** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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ElCampesino
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Joined: 7 Jul 2012, 12:54pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby ElCampesino » 13 Jan 2017, 4:13pm

Why **** should foreigners get to vote? How do you know they pay there taxes? The majority of the ones I know never earn enough to pay taxes or only just go over the tax allowance before going home. Some no doubt go to other countries and use there tax allowance there.
PS I have done it


Because some of us have lived here for more than 15 years, which, applying the same logic for denying the vote to UK expats who have been living abroad for the same period, should have resulted in the right to have a say on the matter.

Btw, you’ll be pleased to hear that I do pay my taxes in the UK.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby pete75 » 13 Jan 2017, 4:18pm

landsurfer wrote:Just a thought folks.... how many 16 - 18 year olds do you actually interact with. Interact with .. not "know".
I employ 6 of them .... Mummy or daddy brings them to work and picks them up, makes their packed lunch and dresses them, they are incredibly immature.
One first year apprentice left because mummy got a job further from home and he would had to have caught the bus to work .....
They think work is a social occasion and it's all right to be constantly playing with their phones ... constantly .....
And you would let them VOTE !!!!!

Probably when you and I where 18 we where adults .... that has changed .. for the worse.


If they're that bad you or whoever appointed them ain't very good at staff selection. Spending their time at work playing with their phones means they're being poorly managed.

landsurfer
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Location: Rotherham

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby landsurfer » 13 Jan 2017, 4:29pm

brynpoeth wrote:

Hello landsurfer

You obviously choose to employ them, how much do they get per hour? Maybe you could employ older people who might cost more but get more done. Many firms forbid using personal phones etc at work, could you do that? One thing is better now than back then, remember how often people used the employer's telephone for private calls.

I was surely immature at 16, 18, 21.. did a lot of cycling instead of developing my personality. Decades later I understand why you many "primitive" societies have special respect for older people. Because wisdom and learning develop over many years and cannot be acquired in three years at college.


Our lowest paid staff are salaried, £15k per annum, the apprentices. All tuition fees are paid by us and we provide accommodation , premier inns, and £20/ day subsistence. In addition to 20 days holiday + bank holidays and an additional 10 days at Christmas we encourage activities and hobbies when working away. We have kayaks and mountain bikes which staff are encouraged to use. We work all over the UK and Ireland ....
I left home at 17 and moved from Belfast to Aylesbury then newquay to work ...... At 20 I bought my first house .... Got married had kids travelled the world working ....

As for managing 16 -18 year olds .... If we have 1 full time post available we recruit 3 ..... And some times we actually have 1 in post 6 months later .....
It's not about the bike .. It's about the journey .....
The Road Goes On Forever ........................

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 5:06pm

Boyd wrote:Why **** should foreigners get to vote? How do you know they pay there taxes? The majority of the ones I know never earn enough to pay taxes or only just go over the tax allowance before going home. Some no doubt go to other countries and use there tax allowance there.
PS I have done it

You need to look at how and who the outcome of an election impacts an individual. When you are a UK citizen living overseas you lose your right to vote in UK Westminster elections after being non-resident (in the UK) for 15 years (from memory). So should you then lose your right to vote for the government (in your state of residence) that determines so many things that impact your life (your taxes, your benefits, the laws you live under).

Same applies the other way round. People resident in the UK live under rules determined by the Government of their country of residence (i.e. what taxes they pay, what laws they have to obey, etc.) so is it not right that once those people have demonstrated they are not transient that they should have a say in the democratic process ?

And as it stands, after a much shorter time residents get to vote in the local elections and the MEP elections in their country of residence (rather than they country of citizenship).

It is a far more complex discussion that the rather simplistic "Why **** should foreigners get to vote?" - maybe made harder by the rather loaded use of "foreigners" vs "British Citizens". And what happens when one of the "foreigners" also get British Citizenship (something they are eligible to apply for after being resident in the UK for 5 years).

Ian

Boyd
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Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 9:05pm

bovlomov wrote:I know why A&E is overstretched in our area.

- GPs rarely or never make home visits. Appointments with some GPs have to be booked far in advance. There is an out-of-hours service, but their advice is either do nothing and see what happens, or go to A&E.

- The District Nurse service has disintegrated. The older nurses have retired, to be replaced with agency nurses. There is no continuity of treatment from them, and it is virtually impossible to contact the office by phone. The management is centralised now, and so remote from the patient in more than one way. Communication between District Nurses and GPs is minimal. A&E is picking up the pieces.

- Social care services are in decline. People with easily solved health or mobility issues aren't noticed until there is a crisis - often resulting in a visit to A&E.

In every respect this is worse than five years ago.

I'd start with all that before looking to blame immigrants.

Its the 20% increase since last year that throws me. Sorry but can think no other reason.
Last edited by Boyd on 13 Jan 2017, 9:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

Boyd
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Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 9:06pm

ElCampesino wrote:
Why **** should foreigners get to vote? How do you know they pay there taxes? The majority of the ones I know never earn enough to pay taxes or only just go over the tax allowance before going home. Some no doubt go to other countries and use there tax allowance there.
PS I have done it

K
Because some of us have lived here for more than 15 years, which, applying the same logic for denying the vote to UK expats who have been living abroad for the same period, should have resulted in the right to have a say on the matter.

Btw, you’ll be pleased to hear that I do pay my taxes in the UK.

Are you saying you were not allowed to vote after 15 years of living in the UK? I don't believe you.

Boyd
Posts: 509
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 13 Jan 2017, 9:13pm

landsurfer wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:

Hello landsurfer

You obviously choose to employ them, how much do they get per hour? Maybe you could employ older people who might cost more but get more done. Many firms forbid using personal phones etc at work, could you do that? One thing is better now than back then, remember how often people used the employer's telephone for private calls.

I was surely immature at 16, 18, 21.. did a lot of cycling instead of developing my personality. Decades later I understand why you many "primitive" societies have special respect for older people. Because wisdom and learning develop over many years and cannot be acquired in three years at college.


Our lowest paid staff are salaried, £15k per annum, the apprentices. All tuition fees are paid by us and we provide accommodation , premier inns, and £20/ day subsistence. In addition to 20 days holiday + bank holidays and an additional 10 days at Christmas we encourage activities and hobbies when working away. We have kayaks and mountain bikes which staff are encouraged to use. We work all over the UK and Ireland ....
I left home at 17 and moved from Belfast to Aylesbury then newquay to work ...... At 20 I bought my first house .... Got married had kids travelled the world working ....

As for managing 16 -18 year olds .... If we have 1 full time post available we recruit 3 ..... And some times we actually have 1 in post 6 months later .....

You deserve a great deal of respect for training, note I don't use the word hiring, as they are unlikely to be contributing much in the way of profit.

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 11:03pm

Boyd wrote:
ElCampesino wrote:
Why **** should foreigners get to vote? How do you know they pay there taxes? The majority of the ones I know never earn enough to pay taxes or only just go over the tax allowance before going home. Some no doubt go to other countries and use there tax allowance there.
PS I have done it

K
Because some of us have lived here for more than 15 years, which, applying the same logic for denying the vote to UK expats who have been living abroad for the same period, should have resulted in the right to have a say on the matter.

Btw, you’ll be pleased to hear that I do pay my taxes in the UK.

Are you saying you were not allowed to vote after 15 years of living in the UK? I don't believe you.

If you are a UK citizen resident outside the UK you lose your right to vote in the UK General Elections after 15 years. If you are a non-UK citizen you can vote in some elections but not the Westminster ones. However, after 5 years legal residency in the UK you have the right to apply for citizenship (and they you would get a vote).

My understanding anyway. In practice it can depend on your Returning Officer who can make things more than difficult if they chose to deny you your vote in the UK Westminster elections (and when that happens not even an MP can necessarily "unblock" the "challenges").

Ian

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 13 Jan 2017, 11:11pm

Boyd wrote:
bovlomov wrote:I know why A&E is overstretched in our area.

- GPs rarely or never make home visits. Appointments with some GPs have to be booked far in advance. There is an out-of-hours service, but their advice is either do nothing and see what happens, or go to A&E.

- The District Nurse service has disintegrated. The older nurses have retired, to be replaced with agency nurses. There is no continuity of treatment from them, and it is virtually impossible to contact the office by phone. The management is centralised now, and so remote from the patient in more than one way. Communication between District Nurses and GPs is minimal. A&E is picking up the pieces.

- Social care services are in decline. People with easily solved health or mobility issues aren't noticed until there is a crisis - often resulting in a visit to A&E.

In every respect this is worse than five years ago.

I'd start with all that before looking to blame immigrants.

Its the 20% increase since last year that throws me. Sorry but can think no other reason.

Just because you cannot think of a reason does not mean that it must be due to "all these EU immigrants".

Maybe it has to do with it being harder to get a GP appointment. e.g. my own GP practice a year ago was a 2 week wait at worst whereas now they are booked-up for 3 weeks (and I have the impression they don't book appointments beyond 3 weeks so you have to try and catch them when the open booking for 3 weeks ahead). e.g. another practice I'm aware of (through relatives, some distance away) where sometimes they have to cancel every GP appointment in the entire practice for an entire day and only take emergency GP appointments. If it becomes harder to get to see your GP some will end-up going to A&E (when they shouldn't).

Maybe it has to do with austerity cuts in local Councils who have the responsibility for Social Care making bed blocking significantly worse which causes big problems for A&E admissions.

There are many possible reasons; there is no sense in choosing e.g. EU immigrants when you can find no evidence or facts to support such an assertion and just because YOU can't think of another reason.

Ian

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bovlomov
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby bovlomov » 13 Jan 2017, 11:24pm

Boyd wrote:Its the 20% increase since last year that throws me. Sorry but can think no other reason.

Sorry, I can't find any source for this figure. Where does it come from?

The Independent says
The number of attendances from April to December increased by 2.2% on the previous year, while those from January to March increased by 12.2%.

It isn't unreasonable to think that the underfunding and/or bad management of social care , GP services and The NHS in general, might be responsible for much of the increase in A&E attendance. As these services are failing at the same time, you'd expect a surge.

EDIT: Psamathe got there first, and with more detail.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jan 2017, 11:36pm

Boyd wrote:Why **** should foreigners get to vote? How do you know they pay there taxes? The majority of the ones I know never earn enough to pay taxes or only just go over the tax allowance before going home. Some no doubt go to other countries and use there tax allowance there.
PS I have done it


Boyd wrote:Why has there been a 20% increase in people using A and E This year? Nothing to do with EU immigrants? Who often don't speak english so the NHS has to supply an interpreter. I note no TV stations are suggesting that as possibility. Not politically correct?


Got any facts and figures to back up those claims?

Or is it just post-truth?
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Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 14 Jan 2017, 12:36am

Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:
bovlomov wrote:I know why A&E is overstretched in our area.

- GPs rarely or never make home visits. Appointments with some GPs have to be booked far in advance. There is an out-of-hours service, but their advice is either do nothing and see what happens, or go to A&E.

- The District Nurse service has disintegrated. The older nurses have retired, to be replaced with agency nurses. There is no continuity of treatment from them, and it is virtually impossible to contact the office by phone. The management is centralised now, and so remote from the patient in more than one way. Communication between District Nurses and GPs is minimal. A&E is picking up the pieces.

- Social care services are in decline. People with easily solved health or mobility issues aren't noticed until there is a crisis - often resulting in a visit to A&E.

In every respect this is worse than five years ago.

I'd start with all that before looking to blame immigrants.

Its the 20% increase since last year that throws me. Sorry but can think no other reason.

Just because you cannot think of a reason does not mean that it must be due to "all these EU immigrants".

Maybe it has to do with it being harder to get a GP appointment. e.g. my own GP practice a year ago was a 2 week wait at worst whereas now they are booked-up for 3 weeks (and I have the impression they don't book appointments beyond 3 weeks so you have to try and catch them when the open booking for 3 weeks ahead). e.g. another practice I'm aware of (through relatives, some distance away) where sometimes they have to cancel every GP appointment in the entire practice for an entire day and only take emergency GP appointments. If it becomes harder to get to see your GP some will end-up going to A&E (when they shouldn't).

Maybe it has to do with austerity cuts in local Councils who have the responsibility for Social Care making bed blocking significantly worse which causes big problems for A&E admissions.

There are many possible reasons; there is no sense in choosing e.g. EU immigrants when you can find no evidence or facts to support such an assertion and just because YOU can't think of another reason.

Ian

Your suggestion are no different from mine. You have no evidence or facts just possibility based entirely on your politically correct middle class views.

blackbike
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Joined: 11 Jul 2009, 3:21pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 14 Jan 2017, 12:44am

News from Germany.

No jail time for three men who tried to burn down a synagogue.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Boyd
Posts: 509
Joined: 24 Oct 2016, 11:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 14 Jan 2017, 1:13am

blackbike wrote:News from Germany.

No jail time for three men who tried to burn down a synagogue.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.

Psamathe
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Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 14 Jan 2017, 10:29am

Boyd wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:Its the 20% increase since last year that throws me. Sorry but can think no other reason.

Just because you cannot think of a reason does not mean that it must be due to "all these EU immigrants".

Maybe it has to do with it being harder to get a GP appointment. e.g. my own GP practice a year ago was a 2 week wait at worst whereas now they are booked-up for 3 weeks (and I have the impression they don't book appointments beyond 3 weeks so you have to try and catch them when the open booking for 3 weeks ahead). e.g. another practice I'm aware of (through relatives, some distance away) where sometimes they have to cancel every GP appointment in the entire practice for an entire day and only take emergency GP appointments. If it becomes harder to get to see your GP some will end-up going to A&E (when they shouldn't).

Maybe it has to do with austerity cuts in local Councils who have the responsibility for Social Care making bed blocking significantly worse which causes big problems for A&E admissions.

There are many possible reasons; there is no sense in choosing e.g. EU immigrants when you can find no evidence or facts to support such an assertion and just because YOU can't think of another reason.

Ian

Your suggestion are no different from mine. You have no evidence or facts just possibility based entirely on your politically correct middle class views.

I am glad you (or a moderator) has removed the earlier "hypocrite" you have previously placed at the end of your post directly accusing me of being a hypocrite. That you put it there speaks volumes.

If you actually read what I posted I was suggesting alternative possibilities - actually possibilities I got from news reports and from interviews broadcast with the representatives of e.g. doctors professional associations.

Read the words "Maybe it has to do ...".

You have been arguing it must be EU immigrants because you can think of no other reason. I have suggested other possible reasons. If you can't even be bothered to do a Google search then maybe I have to do that for you as well; so 1st result from a Google search
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/12/nhs-bed-blocking-rises-42-year-new-figures-show/ wrote:NHS bed-blocking rises 42% in a year, new figures show


And a Google search re GP waiting times, 1st result


But I'm afraid I can't do all your research as well as everything else I have to do in mmy life. You aserted it was because of EU immigrants but could not be bothered to research facts. You just wanted to blame the EU immigrants - to the point where you would personally insult people who did not accept your prejudice.

Ian