** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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bovlomov
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby bovlomov » 14 Jan 2017, 10:47pm

blackbike wrote:Firstly , I don't expect people to conform to my stereotypes.

Then why do you so frequently generalise about groups and their motives?

Secondly, I don't see any problems with the 'change of status' for any foreigner who lives in the UK at the moment. Their right to live and work here is just a right which currently exists and can be withdrawn at any time should our parliament to see fit to do so.

There is a problem if the UK is in breach of a treaty of which it is a signatory. Otherwise all international law and treaties are rendered worthless. Indeed, all law is rendered worthless.

Again, that is heading for the North Korea option.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jan 2017, 10:55pm

What is a foreigner?
Are people from the EU foreigners?Not any more. Not at the moment.
That is the great leveling aim of the EU.

We are citizens of Europe and can move live and work freely within it's borders.
So while we all have our own cultural identifies we are not foreigners! Just individuals in the finest sense of the word.
A bit like Welshmen living in England or vice versa. Or a Scot in Cornwall!
But across the whole big wide Continent.
It's wonderful.
All that cultural and linguistic richness just there for belonging to, the taking of and enjoying.

I have felt it. Sitting on a small town harbour wall in the North of Spain.
Saturday night. Beautiful social atmosphere.
I thought, I am English (and proud to be English), you are all Spanish, yet I belong here too. It's all mine too!
We are all Europeans working together for the betterment of OUR Continent and our fellow citizens.

Divide and rule. Sadly now true .

landsurfer
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby landsurfer » 14 Jan 2017, 11:02pm

As long as you feel the same way about Bridlington that's fine .... :)
Not all those that wander are lost.

The Road Goes on Forever.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 12:10am

blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:... If, on our exit from the EU, EU foreigners who live here are required to leave by act of parliament, that is not anything to with my stereotypes or anyone else's. It is merely our democratic decision....

(Not responding to your post directly in the more general content) but on this being a democratic decision I hope you will be proven right because at the moment is looks like it will be anything but democratic. Ms May (our appointed leader) is fighting through appeal courts to exclude our democratically elected Parliament from the decisions about our leaving the EU. She is still maintaining the Parliament will not be given any say in the acceptance of the final agreement - so as at the moment it is looking totally undemocratic.

And whilst I fully agree the EU referendum vote for the UK to leave the EU was democratic, that vote did not say anything about EU citizens already in the UK being allowed to remain here or being forced to leave so nothing democratic on that aspect to our leaving should that be dicided by the "Executive" (basically Ms May and her 3 Blind Mice).

Ian


Clutching at straws.

We were asked quite clearly if we wanted to leave the EU or not. And we do want to leave.

The details are for our elected representatives to decide. If they choose to deport EU foreigners who are already here I will respect that. If they choose to let them stay I'll respect that too.....

I agree, maybe I did not express my post clearly. For our elected representatives to decide - but our appointed leader is fighting through the appeal courts to stop those elected representatives having any say and is currently maintaining that they will have no say over the agreement she negotiates with the EU. We are in complete agreement that our elected representatives should be the ones to decide (and not an appointed leader).

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 12:13am

PDQ Mobile wrote:What is a foreigner?
Are people from the EU foreigners?Not any more. Not at the moment.
That is the great leveling aim of the EU.

We are citizens of Europe and can move live and work freely within it's borders.
So while we all have our own cultural identifies we are not foreigners! Just individuals in the finest sense of the word.
A bit like Welshmen living in England or vice versa. Or a Scot in Cornwall!
But across the whole big wide Continent.
It's wonderful.
All that cultural and linguistic richness just there for belonging to, the taking of and enjoying.

I have felt it. Sitting on a small town harbour wall in the North of Spain.
Saturday night. Beautiful social atmosphere.
I thought, I am English (and proud to be English), you are all Spanish, yet I belong here too. It's all mine too!
We are all Europeans working together for the betterment of OUR Continent and our fellow citizens.

Divide and rule. Sadly now true .

+1. Maybe not enough British have managed to travel overseas to appreciate it.

Ian

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 15 Jan 2017, 12:19am

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:(Not responding to your post directly in the more general content) but on this being a democratic decision I hope you will be proven right because at the moment is looks like it will be anything but democratic. Ms May (our appointed leader) is fighting through appeal courts to exclude our democratically elected Parliament from the decisions about our leaving the EU. She is still maintaining the Parliament will not be given any say in the acceptance of the final agreement - so as at the moment it is looking totally undemocratic.

And whilst I fully agree the EU referendum vote for the UK to leave the EU was democratic, that vote did not say anything about EU citizens already in the UK being allowed to remain here or being forced to leave so nothing democratic on that aspect to our leaving should that be dicided by the "Executive" (basically Ms May and her 3 Blind Mice).

Ian


Clutching at straws.

We were asked quite clearly if we wanted to leave the EU or not. And we do want to leave.

The details are for our elected representatives to decide. If they choose to deport EU foreigners who are already here I will respect that. If they choose to let them stay I'll respect that too.....

I agree, maybe I did not express my post clearly. For our elected representatives to decide - but our appointed leader is fighting through the appeal courts to stop those elected representatives having any say and is currently maintaining that they will have no say over the agreement she negotiates with the EU. We are in complete agreement that our elected representatives should be the ones to decide (and not an appointed leader).

Ian


I'm not sure what you are getting at. We always have appointed prime ministers. We never elect them.

I'm delighted that some Remainers need to resort to such feeble arguments. It shows how out of touch they with reality.


I love your use of red ink. Very impressive.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 12:23am

blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:
Clutching at straws.

We were asked quite clearly if we wanted to leave the EU or not. And we do want to leave.

The details are for our elected representatives to decide. If they choose to deport EU foreigners who are already here I will respect that. If they choose to let them stay I'll respect that too.....

I agree, maybe I did not express my post clearly. For our elected representatives to decide - but our appointed leader is fighting through the appeal courts to stop those elected representatives having any say and is currently maintaining that they will have no say over the agreement she negotiates with the EU. We are in complete agreement that our elected representatives should be the ones to decide (and not an appointed leader).

Ian


I'm not sure what you are getting at. We always have appointed prime ministers. We never elect them.

I'm delighted that some Remainers need to resort to such feeble arguments. It shows how out of touch they with reality.


I love your use of red ink. Very impressive.

(red ink to highlight the point we agree on and I was primarily responding to).

I was not disputing that we have appointed PMs. Just agreeing with you that the leaving and as you say "the details" is for our elected representatives to decide (rather than our "appointed" representatives).

i.e some of our representatives are elected (e.g. MPs) others are appointed (e,g, Prime Minister) and we both agree that the details of our leaving the EU is for the "elected" ones to decide (despite what the "appointed one seems to want).

Ian

blackbike
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby blackbike » 15 Jan 2017, 12:43am

Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I agree, maybe I did not express my post clearly. For our elected representatives to decide - but our appointed leader is fighting through the appeal courts to stop those elected representatives having any say and is currently maintaining that they will have no say over the agreement she negotiates with the EU. We are in complete agreement that our elected representatives should be the ones to decide (and not an appointed leader).

Ian


I'm not sure what you are getting at. We always have appointed prime ministers. We never elect them.

I'm delighted that some Remainers need to resort to such feeble arguments. It shows how out of touch they with reality.


I love your use of red ink. Very impressive.

(red ink to highlight the point we agree on and I was primarily responding to).

I was not disputing that we have appointed PMs. Just agreeing with you that the leaving and as you say "the details" is for our elected representatives to decide (rather than our "appointed" representatives).

i.e some of our representatives are elected (e.g. MPs) others are appointed (e,g, Prime Minister) and we both agree that the details of our leaving the EU is for the "elected" ones to decide (despite what the "appointed one seems to want).

Ian


Mrs May is elected.

You don't like what she wants.

You need to deal with that by campaigning for what you believe in.

Good luck with that.

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bovlomov
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby bovlomov » 15 Jan 2017, 1:05am

blackbike wrote:You need to deal with that by campaigning for what you believe in.

Good luck with that.

Finally, you acknowledge that democracy is an ongoing process that continues between elections. This is a great step forward from your earlier position:
I'm quite happy for the elected government to get its way.

That's democracy.

It's good that you now understand, democracy doesn't necessarily mean that the government gets its way.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby PDQ Mobile » 15 Jan 2017, 1:16am

blackbike wrote:
Mrs May is elected.

You don't like what she wants.

You need to deal with that by campaigning for what you believe in.

Good luck with that.

But we don't know what she wants. Prior to the referendum she wanted to Remain.
Perhaps after her speech on Tuesday we will be wiser.
My guess is that she wants the Tories to hold onto power at all costs. Only that.
The referendum has thrown that into serious flux. Hence all that "will of the people" stuff repeated ad nausium.
Instead of getting on with running this poor old country.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 9:52am

blackbike wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
blackbike wrote:
I'm not sure what you are getting at. We always have appointed prime ministers. We never elect them.

I'm delighted that some Remainers need to resort to such feeble arguments. It shows how out of touch they with reality.


I love your use of red ink. Very impressive.

(red ink to highlight the point we agree on and I was primarily responding to).

I was not disputing that we have appointed PMs. Just agreeing with you that the leaving and as you say "the details" is for our elected representatives to decide (rather than our "appointed" representatives).

i.e some of our representatives are elected (e.g. MPs) others are appointed (e,g, Prime Minister) and we both agree that the details of our leaving the EU is for the "elected" ones to decide (despite what the "appointed one seems to want).

Ian


Mrs May is elected.

You don't like what she wants.

You need to deal with that by campaigning for what you believe in.

Good luck with that.

You said "The details are for our elected representatives to decide". You said "Our" - I never got a vote in Mays appointment (as an MP{ so how can she be my representative. You said "representatives" - plural so you can only be referring to MPs who are "our elected representatives". I can see no other way to interpret what you said and I agree with you on that. It should be for our democratically elected representatives to decide.

As for liking what she wants, I don't know "what she wants". She supposedly supported Remain yet never bothered to campaign except to her private banker chums. And since then all we've been told is that "Brexit means Brexit" (and I can't see how that even remotely suggests what she wants) - although in fairness she did explain a bit more when she explained we want a "Red White and Blue Brexit" (though can't see how a few colour provide any further detail.

Ian
Ian

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 9:59am

PDQ Mobile wrote:...
But we don't know what she wants. Prior to the referendum she wanted to Remain.
Perhaps after her speech on Tuesday we will be wiser.
My guess is that she wants the Tories to hold onto power at all costs. Only that.
The referendum has thrown that into serious flux. Hence all that "will of the people" stuff repeated ad nausium.
Instead of getting on with running this poor old country.

I agree and I find that disappointing (not disappointing that I agree with you but disappointing that her motives seem little more than her personal career development and Conservatives staying in power.

PDQ Mobile wrote:...
...
My guess is that she wants the Tories to hold onto power at all costs. Only that.
The referendum has thrown that into serious flux....

I'm unsure about that part though. Given how Labour have decided to offer no real competition to the Conservatives (on anything) and in effect decided to step aside, next election I can't see who would actually be taking seats from the Conservatives. Unless the Lib Dems can make an amazing recovery (which I do think is possible - but maybe just wishful thinking 'cos anybody would be better than the Conservatives).

That Ms May has such poor opponents seems to suggest that an election now would give her a significantly increased majority; which might be particularly important if the General Election expenses scandal results in her losing a few MPs. But she is to scared to do even that (a "sure thing"). Maybe she just loves the taste of power too much to even think about risking it - even though it would give her a massive mandate for her personal Brexit plans and allow her to formulate her own manifesto.

Ian

SpannerGeek
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby SpannerGeek » 15 Jan 2017, 10:20am

Brexit is Boring!

I wondered how long it would take the British people to become bored with Brexit. I'm calling it today, January 15th 2017. Even the broadsheet press is struggling to find anything of interest.

Here's my take on it: a transition deal will appear about 3 months after article 50 is in play, allowing this 2 year narrative to be kicked into the long grass, till Brexit is no longer perceived an existential threat.

We mostly forget about it, very slow incremental changes happen, so slowly we hardly notice the compromises and in maybe 6-8 years time it's all done and dusted and everyone forgotten what all the fuss was about. Nobody complains how little has changed.

Anyone who thinks a hard Brexit will be achieved. in two years and Britain coming out on top smelling of roses is absolutely barking.

It's all bluff and posturing. Don't believe the hype, we're on a long, long road. Probably to nowhere.

Psamathe
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Psamathe » 15 Jan 2017, 10:38am

SpannerGeek wrote:...
Here's my take on it: a transition deal will appear about 3 months after article 50 is in play, allowing this 2 year narrative to be kicked into the long grass, till Brexit is no longer perceived an existential threat....

I'm unsure the EU (or UK) could negotiate a transition deal in 3 months. And any transition deal must depend on the final agreement as well - no point in agreeing a transition deal allowing partial access to EEA should the final deal then mean the UK has full membership of the EEA or no point in a transition deal allowing EU/UK citizens resident overseas for remain there fr e.g. 10 years provided they e.g. take out private health insurance should the final deal allow full freedom of movement. And transition deal has to be based on what you are transitioning to.

Ian

Boyd
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Re: 'Brexit means Brexit' ... ** The Brexit Thread **

Postby Boyd » 15 Jan 2017, 10:46am

Psamathe wrote:
Boyd wrote:
blackbike wrote:News from Germany.

No jail time for three men who tried to burn down a synagogue.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/German-co ... ael-478330

Can I suggest you create a new topic unless you are suggesting that an attempting to burn down a synagogue in Germany was a product of Brexit? If so please expand.

I think we don't need new topics for every slightly different aspect to every current affairs thread. The forum at times can become swamped with too many related current affairs threads and some members find it overwhelms the cycling threads! Discussions on this (too many current affairs threads) seem to come to a consensus to not be starting a new thread for every slight variant of such discussions.

Ian
"slightly different aspect" he is linking brexit with the burning down of synagogues in Germany. Feel free to point out the link.
Last edited by Boyd on 15 Jan 2017, 11:05am, edited 1 time in total.