** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[blackbike]

The Normans were originally north men who settled in France and assimilated. North men as in Norse as in Viking types. We're all partly foreigners anyway. All probably descended from areas that will remain in the EU or even further afield. It's going to be always the case we'll have migration.

We are all from Africa originally.

So why does the allegedly cosmopolitan and wonderful EU not allow people from Africa free access to the EU to live and work? Or billions of other people from all over the world too?

Pro-EU people who claim the moral high ground on freedom of movement and immigration often conveniently forget that the organisation was specifically created as a protectionist bloc to benefit its inhabitants, not the whole of humanity.

Yet they moan and complain when the UK plans to act in exactly the same way as an independent nation.

[fishfright]

I think this illustrates where this thread has ended up

[Psamathe]

I think this illustrates where this thread has ended up
.....

As with many discussions this thread diverts on to all sorts to different aspects of Brexit, often depending on what is going on at any time. Different aspects interest different people e.g. I am very concerned about many aspects of Brexit but our being forced back to using imperial units is not one of them so I don't really contribute whilst others are expressing their views on that aspect.

The thread will undoubtedly move to other aspects that some will find interesting, other not find interesting, then on to other aspects, etc.

It's a very broad subject contained within a single thread (to avoid swamping the forum with multiple overlapping threads of each different aspect.

Ian

[pwa]

The Normans were originally north men who settled in France and assimilated. North men as in Norse as in Viking types. We're all partly foreigners anyway. All probably descended from areas that will remain in the EU or even further afield. It's going to be always the case we'll have migration.

We are all from Africa originally.

So why does the allegedly cosmopolitan and wonderful EU not allow people from Africa free access to the EU to live and work? Or billions of other people from all over the world too?

Pro-EU people who claim the moral high ground on freedom of movement and immigration often conveniently forget that the organisation was specifically created as a protectionist bloc to benefit its inhabitants, not the whole of humanity.

Yet they moan and complain when the UK plans to act in exactly the same way as an independent nation.

I don't understand why people seem to be polarised over migration. Unless one takes the extreme view that the whole of humanity should be able to migrate to the UK with no controls, one accepts that some migration controls are necessary. And that, surely, is practically all of us. It then becomes a judgement over numbers and criteria, which civilised people should be able to mull over without getting too irate.

[Psamathe]

The Normans were originally north men who settled in France and assimilated. North men as in Norse as in Viking types. We're all partly foreigners anyway. All probably descended from areas that will remain in the EU or even further afield. It's going to be always the case we'll have migration.

We are all from Africa originally.

So why does the allegedly cosmopolitan and wonderful EU not allow people from Africa free access to the EU to live and work? Or billions of other people from all over the world too?

Pro-EU people who claim the moral high ground on freedom of movement and immigration often conveniently forget that the organisation was specifically created as a protectionist bloc to benefit its inhabitants, not the whole of humanity.

Yet they moan and complain when the UK plans to act in exactly the same way as an independent nation.

I understand it as that we are in a single Market with the other EU member states. A Single Market is somewhat more open that a "Free Trade Area" or a "Customs Union".

When it comes to exports you need to consider the non-tariff barriers as well as the tariffs. Non-tarif barriers can be a significant cost on and hindrance to exporters which is why the Single Market is such a help you our export (apart from the effects of the Gravity Model effects). Politicians often focus only on tariffs where with many countries it is already the non-tarifff barriers that are the more significant (tariffs already being very low on many products).

And where you have a Single Market, so aspects like Freedom of Movement become crucial to the operation of that market (a Single Market being somewhat more that e.g. Free Trade Area or Customs Union).

So if your other countries (Africa, rest of World, etc.) joined the Single Market then it would work that they also have Freedom of Movement.

It's a matter of "Single Market" NOT about "Immigration Policy".

Ian

[meic]

The Normans were originally north men who settled in France and assimilated. North men as in Norse as in Viking types. We're all partly foreigners anyway. All probably descended from areas that will remain in the EU or even further afield. It's going to be always the case we'll have migration.

We are all from Africa originally.

So why does the allegedly cosmopolitan and wonderful EU not allow people from Africa free access to the EU to live and work? Or billions of other people from all over the world too?

Pro-EU people who claim the moral high ground on freedom of movement and immigration often conveniently forget that the organisation was specifically created as a protectionist bloc to benefit its inhabitants, not the whole of humanity.

Yet they moan and complain when the UK plans to act in exactly the same way as an independent nation.

I don't understand why people seem to be polarised over migration. Unless one takes the extreme view that the whole of humanity should be able to migrate to the UK with no controls, one accepts that some migration controls are necessary. And that, surely, is practically all of us. It then becomes a judgement over numbers and criteria, which civilised people should be able to mull over without getting too irate.

You are asking for a bit much there!

[blackbike]

I don't understand why people seem to be polarised over migration. Unless one takes the extreme view that the whole of humanity should be able to migrate to the UK with no controls, one accepts that some migration controls are necessary. And that, surely, is practically all of us. It then becomes a judgement over numbers and criteria, which civilised people should be able to mull over without getting too irate.

Most people can discuss it quite calmly.

The people who have a problem with anyone else mulling it over are usually 'liberals' who try angrily to end or circumscribe all discussion of the subject with accusations of racism and xenophobia, so demonstrating to each other just how wonderful they are.

When we leave the EU we will choose our own immigration policies and restrictions, just as the EU bloc already does and most other countries do too.

Yet from the squawks and moans of many Remainers you'd think we are about to embark on a uniquely abhorrent and despicable course of action that the whole world will find extraordinary and repellent, one which they often claim causes them to be ashamed to be British.

No wonder these people are increasingly ignored, ridiculed and politically marginalised.

[Psamathe]

I don't understand why people seem to be polarised over migration. Unless one takes the extreme view that the whole of humanity should be able to migrate to the UK with no controls, one accepts that some migration controls are necessary. And that, surely, is practically all of us. It then becomes a judgement over numbers and criteria, which civilised people should be able to mull over without getting too irate.

Most people can discuss it quite calmly.

The people who have a problem with anyone else mulling it over are usually 'liberals' who try angrily to end or circumscribe all discussion of the subject with accusations of racism and xenophobia, so demonstrating to each other just how wonderful they are.

When we leave the EU we will choose our own immigration policies and restrictions, just as the EU bloc already does and most other countries do too.

Yet from the squawks and moans of many Remainers you'd think we are about to embark on a uniquely abhorrent and despicable course of action that the whole world will find extraordinary and repellent, one which they often claim causes them to be ashamed to be British.

No wonder these people are increasingly ignored, ridiculed and politically marginalised.

I think you have completely missed the reasons why many wish to remain part of the EU (and have probably misunderstood the various immigration policies for the various different EU member states).

Whilst immigration might be the one and only thing you can focus on, there are many aspects to our EU membership and leaving will come with many significant negative impacts from loss of "membership benefits". One can debate the merits of such benefits and impacts of their loss (and each will impact different people to different extents). But the issue of our EU membership goes far beyond setting our own immigration policy - particularly as we (our Government/Parliament) already set our own immigration policy for most of the world and have decided not to reduce immigration.

Ia

[reohn2]

I don't understand why people seem to be polarised over migration. Unless one takes the extreme view that the whole of humanity should be able to migrate to the UK with no controls, one accepts that some migration controls are necessary....

And yet the current government(in power now for six years)failed to put any controls on immigrants from outside the EU,the place ie;the rest of the world,where it could've had influence if it thought immigration was so bad for the nation.
But it didn't so it couldn't have,could it?

And that, surely, is practically all of us. It then becomes a judgement over numbers and criteria, which civilised people should be able to mull over without getting too irate.

The vast majority of immigrants from the EU come here to work,because there's work for them to do,all the claims of them coming here to steal our jobs does hold water if we're to believe the current unemployment figures which have a downward trend.
If there's work they'll come,the UK isn't a cheap country to live in so they certainly won't come for a free lunch,it doesn't exist.

Our hospitals are full of immigrant workers,from cleaning staff,carers,through to nurses and doctors.
Our crops are picked by immigrants.
They work hard and in a foreign country because they have to.....

[blackbike]

[

I think you have completely missed the reasons why many wish to remain part of the EU (and have probably misunderstood the various immigration policies for the various different EU member states).

There can be now doubt whatsoever the many Remainers have chosen immigration as a way of criticising people who voted Leave, using the topic as a feeble and unjustified excuse to angrily call them racist and xenophobic.

As for the immigration policies of 'various different EU states', I haven't misunderstood anything.

All EU states restrict and control immigration from outside the EU. They have agreed to free movement between each other because they think that is best for all of them, not because they think its the best for all humans.

When we leave the EU movement of people between the UK and the EU will be a matter for mutual agreement. I doubt the EU will take the moral high ground by declaring that all Brits will continue to have free movement into the EU unless we agree to keep it for all EU people into the UK. It will fight for deal which is advantageous to itself rather than us, just as we will fight for the best deal for us.

The EU bloc acts as independent countries act - out of self-interest. It is a protectionist group which looks after its own members above everyone else on earth and it won't grant favours unless it gets something in return. It is not a beacon of best practice on freedom of movement to anyone else, an example for us all to follow, which is what its adoring fans would have us believe.

[pwa]

I don't understand why people seem to be polarised over migration. Unless one takes the extreme view that the whole of humanity should be able to migrate to the UK with no controls, one accepts that some migration controls are necessary....

And yet the current government(in power now for six years)failed to put any controls on immigrants from outside the EU,the place ie;the rest of the world,where it could've had influence if it thought immigration was so bad for the nation.
But it didn't so it couldn't have,could it?

And that, surely, is practically all of us. It then becomes a judgement over numbers and criteria, which civilised people should be able to mull over without getting too irate.

The vast majority of immigrants from the EU come here to work,because there's work for them to do,all the claims of them coming here to steal our jobs does hold water if we're to believe the current unemployment figures which have a downward trend.
If there's work they'll come,the UK isn't a cheap country to live in so they certainly won't come for a free lunch,it doesn't exist.

Our hospitals are full of immigrant workers,from cleaning staff,carers,through to nurses and doctors.
Our crops are picked by immigrants.
They work hard and in a foreign country because they have to.....

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone argue that all immigration should end, or that all EU citizens currently living and working in the UK should leave. Nobody. It is practically a non-existent viewpoint. It is a question of numbers, a question that probably has to be looked at each year, and for each sector of the economy. But at least we will now be allowed to look at it.

Personally, I think there is something wrong about needing constant influxes of large numbers of migrants to fill positions we cannot fill ourselves. There is something unsustainable about it. And surely it is bad for the nations donating the labour, constantly losing their young people. A lot of the farming related stuff can actually be taken care of by increased mechanisation. It is already happening. If we really need additional seasonal workers I suppose we can issue limited period work permits.

[meic]

. A lot of the farming related stuff can actually be taken care of by increased mechanisation. It is already happening. If we really need additional seasonal workers I suppose we can issue limited period work permits.

Not that we would countenance paying a decent wage for workers instead, directing more of our money towards food on the plate instead of importing Chinese crap toys to fill our landfill sites with.
Not that I have a problem with mechanisation if the benefits were to give people a pleasant life, rather than more profits for some and punishment for being unemployed for others.

[Psamathe]

[

I think you have completely missed the reasons why many wish to remain part of the EU (and have probably misunderstood the various immigration policies for the various different EU member states).

There can be now doubt whatsoever the many Remainers have chosen immigration as a way of criticising people who voted Leave, using the topic as a feeble and unjustified excuse to angrily call them racist and xenophobic.

Most people supporting Remain are concerned about the economic damage, concerned about how much weaker the UK will be on the international stage given how our economy will be dwarfed by the EU and these days getting a good deal and how much you are listened to seems very related to the size of your economy and the markets you can offer others (and since Brexit the UK has been dropping fast in the rankings of the world economy). I've not actually noticed many Remain supporters even bothering to criticism Leave voters. They may disagree with the reasons Leave voters use to support their reasons but I've not generally. Of course you could find some links to some critical articles (on both sides - but you can find all sorts on views on the internet from complete nutters to some common sense), but talking to people, immigration does not seem to be the issue politicians were making it and even politicians are now backing off on immigration now even the ardent Leave Conservatives accept that leaving the EU will not reduce immigration (neither from EU nor elsewhere) - so leaving wont impact immigration now so if it is a reason people voted Leave then ... not any more apparently.

As for the immigration policies of 'various different EU states', I haven't misunderstood anything.

All EU states restrict and control immigration from outside the EU. They have agreed to free movement between each other because they think that is best for all of them, not because they think its the best for all humans.

When we leave the EU movement of people between the UK and the EU will be a matter for mutual agreement. I doubt the EU will take the moral high ground by declaring that all Brits will continue to have free movement into the EU unless we agree to keep it for all EU people into the UK. It will fight for deal which is advantageous to itself rather than us, just as we will fight for the best deal for us.

The EU bloc acts as independent countries act - out of self-interest. It is a protectionist group which looks after its own members above everyone else on earth and it won't grant favours unless it gets something in return. It is not a beacon of best practice on freedom of movement to anyone else, an example for us all to follow, which is what its adoring fans would have us believe.

Freedom of Movement is pretty crucial when you have a Single Market. Without Freedom of Movement it would be very easy for individual countries within the Single Market to act in a protectionist manner, particularly in respect of Services. Nothing to do with protectionism, just ensuring the Single Market works as a Single Market. Hence your misunderstanding. EU decided to be a Single Market and set rules so that that market operated properly. EU has been pretty open about allowing other countries to join the Single Market (incl Freedom of Movement) and generally it seems to be Leave supporters who are so critical of this. Yet now you are saying about how restrictive it is and it should be more open, yet when they are they get Leave voters criticising them for that. And the real reason is that it is a Single Market - a massive benefit to exporters (hence the economic impacts we will suffer when we leave it).

The impression your posts give is that you regard Freedom of Movement as some sort of selfishness by a closed inward looking group of countries when in fact is is to ensure the Single Market can operate properly (which is why the EU cannot compromise on the UK in this regard). Non-tariff barriers are a significant hindrance to exporters and the Single Market makes life (and thus trade) massively easier and cheaper. e.g. Free Trade to the US will not be a major economic benefit to many sectors as tariffs are already low (in many sectors) - it is the non-tariff barriers which the costs and hindrances lie.

Ian

[PDQ Mobile]

Very well put Ian.
Exact, concise argument politely put.
No accusations or stupid stereotyping!
Well done.

[mercalia]

......
The impression your posts give is that you regard Freedom of Movement as some sort of selfishness by a closed inward looking group of countries when in fact is is to ensure the Single Market can operate properly (which is why the EU cannot compromise on the UK in this regard). Non-tariff barriers are a significant hindrance to exporters and the Single Market makes life (and thus trade) massively easier and cheaper. e.g. Free Trade to the US will not be a major economic benefit to many sectors as tariffs are already low (in many sectors) - it is the non-tariff barriers which the costs and hindrances lie.

Ian

well it is a simple idea that made sense when the EU began, no one I bet considered the numbers that would be involved. And it ignores other issues like social cohesion and the infrastructure of a country. I am surprised that the simple idea hasnt been reformed to take into account these matters, seeing as though the EU is not the EEC any more ie not just an Economic union, then Brexit would not be happening. Its this brick wall of no compromise that is the trouble and you have to wonder whose interest it serves. There really is no good reason why freedom of movement of labour should be tied to freedom of trade. Its really just part of an ideology, an economic one at that. I read some where that one or other authors of the ideas behind the EU wanted to destroy the idea of the nation state, they saw that as the cause of all Europes woes. Thats idealogy. To see Brexit as an abberation is wrong it is proof that the Freedom of Movement principle needs reforming, to resist that is to hold onto cherished beliefs in the face of reality? What we have in the EU are frightened old men and women who lack the imagination to invent a new system that resepcts the genuine wishes of countries populations, The EU comes from an age where rulers still told the plebs what to do because they know best: We have all read how some EU politicians want to make leaving the EU painful so no one else follows