** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Bonefishblues]

I admit I try, and also guilty as charged of generally trying to impute the best motives in people, and certainly guilty of trying to counteract some of the lazy and usually unhelpful stereotyping of the "opposition" by either "side". I think that most people are fundamentally decent, even where their views differ.

I've just started a thread about surgeons who tattoo their patients on the inside of their bodies without their consent.
Based on a current news story,after listing to the JV phone in on R2,it seems,going off the callers it's quite reasonable for a surgeon like any "artist" to sign his work,those callers would term themselves as reasonable decent citizens with balanced views.
I think those people are unbalanced to think the way they do........

...or those callers might be wholly unrepresentative, hand picked for just those views even, which might just be a way for the Former Journalist called Jeremy Vine to drive ratings and try to justify his 800K (or so, I forget) stipend from the BBC annually. I know I sound like a cracked record on this critical examination lark, but it really is so necessary with our being fed carp day and night.

[Psamathe]

I suspect EU member states after March 2019 will be treating British expats somewhat better than the UK will be treating people from other EU countries living in the UK.

I don't share your confidence in our government's inability to micturate other EU countries off so much that they retaliate against UK immigrants. :(

For me a lot depends on the deal established. The EU officials have said that they want people living in the EU outside their states of nationality (under Freedom of Movement) retain their Freedom of Movement rights, maybe even if they return to the UK (for a bit/time?). When I last lived in France "registering" was pretty trivial (once I'd learnt how to handle the officials) and it was the situation that the moment you set foot in France with the intent to be resident you become resident immediately. But a lot would depend on the deal struck.

I'm sure the UK will well and truly anger and frustrate the rest of the EU in the next year (and beyond), but EU can be quite strong on maintaining rights and freedoms whereas UK focuses more on profit and the wealthy elite.

Ian

[reohn2]

I admit I try, and also guilty as charged of generally trying to impute the best motives in people, and certainly guilty of trying to counteract some of the lazy and usually unhelpful stereotyping of the "opposition" by either "side". I think that most people are fundamentally decent, even where their views differ.

I've just started a thread about surgeons who tattoo their patients on the inside of their bodies without their consent.
Based on a current news story,after listing to the JV phone in on R2,it seems,going off the callers it's quite reasonable for a surgeon like any "artist" to sign his work,those callers would term themselves as reasonable decent citizens with balanced views.
I think those people are unbalanced to think the way they do........

...or those callers might be wholly unrepresentative, hand picked for just those views even, which might just be a way for the Former Journalist called Jeremy Vine to drive ratings and try to justify his 800K (or so, I forget) stipend from the BBC annually. I know I sound like a cracked record on this critical examination lark, but it really is so necessary with our being fed carp day and night.

A double edged blade cuts both ways

[pete75]

Dominic Grieve has received much abuse and even death threats as a result of last night's vote in the commons. Gina Miller received the same including rape threats and racial abuse. Not even the Daily Mail has accused leave supporters of making similar threats against prominent supporters of brexit* like Gove or Johnson.

*Spellchecker seems to have acquired a level of artificial intelligence - it wants to change supporters of brexit to Profiteers

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
I suppose that opinions on the subject are lead by the fact that some have and some have not, had first hand experience in being in a non UK country, working in, and employing non UK people.

When the remainers were campaigning, all I saw were people employing more that 50% of EU workers, they would be biased of course.

[pwa]

Thinking isn't knowing though is it?
I have overheard some remarkable negative conversations and debated with some utterly biased people with regard to immigrants,with views from stealing our jobs to downright racism because of skin colour,accented speach,dress or religion,from the lips and minds of seemingly ordinary well adjusted people.

I've seen the same. It has caused me to rethink my attitudes to those people a lot.

The whole debacle has made me think about whether the UK is the sort of country I want to live in - now seriously considering moving to another EU country before March 2019. I suspect EU member states after March 2019 will be treating British expats somewhat better than the UK will be treating people from other EU countries living in the UK.

Ian

Think about it though. Far Right politics is doing a lot better in many EU nations than here. And I include France, Germany and the Netherlands in that. Which particular EU state do you think is low on bigotry? Which would you move to in order to escape intolerance? Apart from the Irish Republic I'm struggling to think of a suitable candidate.

[reohn2]

Hi,
I suppose that opinions on the subject are lead by the fact that some have and some have not, had first hand experience in being in a non UK country, working in, and employing non UK people.

I'm 64 and really cant say I was aware that much on the difference before and after joining the EEC,it was 40 odd years ago,so how much experience have most people had?
What they know is that despite it's problems(that can only be influenced from the inside)the EU has been good for Europe as a whole and the UKin particular.

When the remainers were campaigning, all I saw were people employing more that 50% of EU workers, they would be biased of course.

I don't understand that statement,are you saying that anyone you came in contact with who voted remain and employed people,employed over 50% of EU workers in their workforce?
If you are you either didn't speak to many people,or you're mistaken IMHO.

[roubaixtuesday]

And I include France, Germany and the Netherlands in that. Which particular EU state do you think is low on bigotry? Which would you move to in order to escape intolerance? Apart from the Irish Republic I'm struggling to think of a suitable candidate.

This is a great point. It's easily forgotten how good a place to live Britain is, and this is one of the reasons.

The EU, of course, is forged from a history of such bigotry driving nationalism, war and atrocities, and a desire to put it behind the continent for ever, through cooperation rather than conflict.

Here, we tend to assume we are immune from it. The appalling xenophobia of the leave campaign proved otherwise.

[pete75]

Think about it though. Far Right politics is doing a lot better in many EU nations than here. And I include France, Germany and the Netherlands in that.

Really? At the 2015 election UKIP got nearly 4 million votes. If we'd had PR like most EUropean countries they'd have had nearly 80 Members of Parliament.

[Bonefishblues]

Think about it though. Far Right politics is doing a lot better in many EU nations than here. And I include France, Germany and the Netherlands in that.

Really? At the 2015 election UKIP got nearly 4 million votes. If we'd had PR like most EUropean countries they'd have had nearly 80 Members of Parliament.

One earnestly hopes that was a high water mark, due to a particular set of circumstances. UKIP are all-but-irrelevant two years later.

[pete75]

Think about it though. Far Right politics is doing a lot better in many EU nations than here. And I include France, Germany and the Netherlands in that.

Really? At the 2015 election UKIP got nearly 4 million votes. If we'd had PR like most EUropean countries they'd have had nearly 80 Members of Parliament.

One earnestly hopes that was a high water mark, due to a particular set of circumstances. UKIP are all-but-irrelevant two years later.

Yes but the Conservative party is also much further to the right than the centre right parties in countries like Germany as demonstrated by choosing to join the European Conservatives and Reformists grouping in the EU parliament. They offer a home to those of right wing views which the like of Germany's Christian Democrats don't hence the need for them to form their own right wing parties.

[mjr]

I have spoken to other Leave voters who feel, as I do, that migrants already here are, by and large, good people who fit in and should be made to feel welcome.

That's literally xenophobia - fear of strangers, fear of the migrants you don't yet know, even though there is little to suggest most would be anything other than more "good people who fit in".

So if someone like Paddington arrived tomorrow, you'd turn him away?

A country led by people who would do that would not be the country I grew up in.

[Psamathe]

Think about it though. Far Right politics is doing a lot better in many EU nations than here. And I include France, Germany and the Netherlands in that.

Really? At the 2015 election UKIP got nearly 4 million votes. If we'd had PR like most EUropean countries they'd have had nearly 80 Members of Parliament.

When I lived in France, French Presidential elections 1st round were always used as an opportunity for protest so the more extreme parties can do unexpectedly well. Last set I felt there was never any risk of Penn actually getting elected. But in the UK we think of it more as each vote being representative of the electorate.

My personal experience was I found the French far more accepting of views that differ from their own. When I 1st moved there I was quietly told that "The local Maire ... he's a Communist ... but we don't mind because he works well and hard for the community". They will argue and very forcefully and very loudly and when the "debate" is finished, irrespective as to what accusations, insults, etc. were exchanged and irrespective of the outcome you continue being friends and continue with dinner ... And I think I gained acceptance because despite not speaking much French I would argue my opinions just as strongly (area I lived I was the only British expat).

My initial thoughts about moving to the EU would be more that I prefer be in a country that works with other countries for the common interest, one that sees the benefits of common goals rather than "days of Empire" nationalism, etc. But initially to retain my Freedom of Movement so very subject to what the final deal/arrangements are.

Ian

[mjr]

When the remainers were campaigning, all I saw were people employing more that 50% of EU workers, they would be biased of course.

I don't understand that statement,are you saying that anyone you came in contact with who voted remain and employed people,employed over 50% of EU workers in their workforce?
If you are you either didn't speak to many people,or you're mistaken IMHO.

It's "all I saw" - as in, NA thought that's what they were, even if they were co-op members like me or small town solicitors, Christian lay preachers, various community groups and all the other rich diversity that I campaigned alongside... compared to the mostly-old-WASP Leave.EU campaigners we were sometimes confronted by. (I'm not sure we encountered a Vote Leave campaign stand. We seemed to have more of the more extreme Leave.EU ones here.)

[Bonefishblues]

Really? At the 2015 election UKIP got nearly 4 million votes. If we'd had PR like most EUropean countries they'd have had nearly 80 Members of Parliament.

One earnestly hopes that was a high water mark, due to a particular set of circumstances. UKIP are all-but-irrelevant two years later.

Yes but the Conservative party is also much further to the right than the centre right parties in countries like Germany as demonstrated by choosing to join the European Conservatives and Reformists grouping in the EU parliament. They offer a home to those of right wing views which the like of Germany's Christian Democrats don't hence the need for them to form their own right wing parties.

I was responding to your specific point about UKIP.