** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Ben@Forest
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jul 2018, 7:10pm

There is possibly a more important aspect of voting Leave than just the here and now. Part of my reason for voting against wasn't just what happened in the last 40 years but what will happen in the next 40.

Anyone on this forum who has or who had a job which includes policy or executive functions knows that you don't get your next job by saying 'Well, l think it's pretty good where it is, let's keep it as it is.' And that's why the EU has transformed from a free-trade organisation to a political entity which put the cart before the horse by introducing the Euro.

And now the EU is fraying at the edges precisely because it can't control all the issues it believes it wants to as a federal state. And nation states are more organic with their own differing objectives.

There will be a few people here who will believe that the EU will become a panacea of peace and harmony in 40 years time but l frankly can't see it. Big, unwieldy organisations end up failing, and the EU is precisely that.

pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 5 Jul 2018, 7:17pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
pete75 wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Not dying away?
I thought the post you referred to suggested exactly the opposite. Pun intended! :shock:


You won't convince anyone who has fully bought into project complacency that views about Brexit will ever change nor that it may well have some ill effects on the country particularly those who voted leave not for rational reasons but out of a dislike of immigration - the we don't won't all these bloody foreigners coming here taking our jobs, drinking our beer, using our toilets etc brigade.


Actually I am not sure if that is always correct.
Take "pwa" for example.
While he is clearly concerned about aspects of continued membership he has been an open and polite (yet passionate) debater.
I think he has much sympathy with the ideals of the EU but feels the immigration issue overides other considerations.

If I/we could just convince him of more of the benefits he also gets, he might look more favourably on continued membership in spite of being a pretty hardened "leaver".

In other words compromise will be required on all sides.


I don't think the sort of person who feels a single issue particularly that of immigration overrides all other considerations is particularly amenable to persuasion or compromise.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jul 2018, 7:17pm

Ben@Forest wrote:There is possibly a more important aspect of voting Leave than just the here and now. Part of my reason for voting against wasn't just what happened in the last 40 years but what will happen in the next 40.

Anyone on this forum who has or who had a job which includes policy or executive functions knows that you don't get your next job by saying 'Well, l think it's pretty good where it is, let's keep it as it is.' And that's why the EU has transformed from a free-trade organisation to a political entity which put the cart before the horse by introducing the Euro.

And now the EU is fraying at the edges precisely because it can't control all the issues it believes it wants to as a federal state. And nation states are more organic with their own differing objectives.

There will be a few people here who will believe that the EU will become a panacea of peace and harmony in 40 years time but l frankly can't see it. Big, unwieldy organisations end up failing, and the EU is precisely that.


No one knows what anything will be like in the next 40 years,but one things for sure,the UK will have no say in how the EU can change for the better by being on the outside looking in,and btw the UK isn't in the Euro.
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mikeonabike
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mikeonabike » 5 Jul 2018, 7:21pm

Ben@Forest wrote:...
There will be a few people here who will believe that the EU will become a panacea of peace and harmony in 40 years time but l frankly can't see it. Big, unwieldy organisations end up failing, and the EU is precisely that.

I see Project Fear isn't finished :roll:

But if you are right then the consequences for us will be adverse whether we are in or out, given that the EU will remain a very significant trading partner. So if you really believe what you just said, then the logical thing is to remain in the EU so we can influence it towards sensible policies.

Ben@Forest
Posts: 1990
Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 5:58pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Ben@Forest » 5 Jul 2018, 7:57pm

reohn2 wrote:No one knows what anything will be like in the next 40 years,but one things for sure,the UK will have no say in how the EU can change for the better by being on the outside looking in,and btw the UK isn't in the Euro.


We know that that the EU had that much of a tin ear that it would not listen to Cameron's entreaties about the UK's concerns about EU policy and now there's been a vote for Brexit whilst Hungary, Austria, Italy and possibly Germany will implement tighter restrictions whilst still being in the EU and breaking its rules. I wonder if Juncker would have a different opinion now?

And we are of course not in the euro but l am pretty concerned about the suffering the euro has brought to huge swathes of Europe, especially the young unemployed in southern Europe. Those who don't recognise that really are 'Little Englanders'.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jul 2018, 8:09pm

Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:No one knows what anything will be like in the next 40 years,but one things for sure,the UK will have no say in how the EU can change for the better by being on the outside looking in,and btw the UK isn't in the Euro.


We know that that the EU had that much of a tin ear that it would not listen to Cameron's entreaties about the UK's concerns about EU policy and now there's been a vote for Brexit whilst Hungary, Austria, Italy and possibly Germany will implement tighter restrictions whilst still being in the EU and breaking its rules. I wonder if Juncker would have a different opinion now?

AFAIA there are 27nations in the EU which needs all to agree to change major policy.
I agree some member states don't alway toe the line but is the UK an different?

And we are of course not in the euro but l am pretty concerned about the suffering the euro has brought to huge swathes of Europe, especially the young unemployed in southern Europe. Those who don't recognise that really are 'Little Englanders'.

I indeed recognise those problems,but it's surely up to those countries to do something about that state of affair such a pulling out of the Euro.
Just to clarify,I don't regard myself as a "Little Englander".
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brynpoeth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 5 Jul 2018, 9:58pm

Could be great if leaving leads to less trade, there is far too much of it now
The UK can produce enough food, people should get used to eating fewer bananas and more porridge, swedes, apples. Bananas should be an expensive treat
Plenty of products that are transported could be produced locally
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Vorpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jul 2018, 10:37pm

brynpoeth wrote:Could be great if leaving leads to less trade, there is far too much of it now
The UK can produce enough food, people should get used to eating fewer bananas and more porridge, swedes, apples. Bananas should be an expensive treat
Plenty of products that are transported could be produced locally

Why do people go on about bananas all the time?

Of all of the imported fruits, bananas are one of the least polluting. They are picked green and put on ships. They take a couple of weeks to get to Europe, as opposed to some of the fruit and vegtables that come from Africa or South America (e.g. blueberries from Chile or Peru) and require careful handling, and delivery with a few days, or fresh fish that is flown from Scotland or Iceland to London restaurants and markets.

Bananas may have more food miles, but they are more environmentally friedly food miles than fresh fish form Iceland.
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matt_twam_asi
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby matt_twam_asi » 5 Jul 2018, 10:40pm

brynpoeth wrote:Could be great if leaving leads to less trade, there is far too much of it now

That's... a novel argument. Making money is... bad?

brynpoeth wrote:people should get used to eating fewer bananas and more porridge, swedes, apples. Bananas should be an expensive treat


As yes, those wretched European banana farms, producing their straight bananas. I know them well.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 5 Jul 2018, 10:51pm

The UK can produce enough food,


Not sure if this is tongue in check or not, but it's about three centuries since the UK was self sufficient in food.

I'm not sure mass famine was the intended way to reduce immigration...

Vorpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 6 Jul 2018, 6:05am

matt_twam_asi wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Could be great if leaving leads to less trade, there is far too much of it now

That's... a novel argument. Making money is... bad?

Our economic model is based upon the consumption of natural resources. This results in economic growth meaning that we use them up at a faster rate than we can replenish them.

In addition, if they are things that oculd be produced in the UK, wouldn't it be better to produce them locally and reduce the distance they are transported?

Making money pretty much always involves using up oil, minerals, and metals that are nonreplenishable. And who makes the money? For the most part, it is people who are already wealthy.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Ben@Forest
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Ben@Forest » 6 Jul 2018, 6:51am

BrianFox wrote:
The UK can produce enough food,


Not sure if this is tongue in check or not, but it's about three centuries since the UK was self sufficient in food.

I'm not sure mass famine was the intended way to reduce immigration...


Many years ago, whilst at college, l remember reading a study which reckoned that depending on what we wanted to eat, rationing and how food was grown (i.e. organic, or with considerations for wildlife or high intensity) that suggested the UK could support between 15 and 30 million people.

Interestingly despite suggestions from vegetarians or vegans that if we stopped eating meat this would solve the problem there would still be an important role for meat rearing because so much of our land cannot be turned to arable. Meat would be expensive but necessary as a protein source from the uplands and high fells. On the plus side we'd definitely get our wild deer (and not indigenous) population under control!

I think a diet from the UK only would be more monotonous than what we are used to, but some people seem to like it. I read recently that the HUEL firm is well-valued and projected to make big profits.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 6 Jul 2018, 9:28am

Ben@Forest wrote:
reohn2 wrote:No one knows what anything will be like in the next 40 years,but one things for sure,the UK will have no say in how the EU can change for the better by being on the outside looking in,and btw the UK isn't in the Euro.


We know that that the EU had that much of a tin ear that it would not listen to Cameron's entreaties about the UK's concerns about EU policy and now there's been a vote for Brexit whilst Hungary, Austria, Italy and possibly Germany will implement tighter restrictions whilst still being in the EU and breaking its rules. I wonder if Juncker would have a different opinion now?

And we are of course not in the euro but l am pretty concerned about the suffering the euro has brought to huge swathes of Europe, especially the young unemployed in southern Europe. Those who don't recognise that really are 'Little Englanders'.

To say one voted leave because what the world will look like in 40 years seems disingenuous. (The Director of the Bank of England, no less, struggles to predict with any accuracy, in his area, 6 months ahead!!)

I, like reohn, do not see the EU as dictatorial but rather an alliance of 27 nations trying to improve things.
That there is disagreement and discussion is a positive, IMV, but you have to stay at the table.


The Euro crisis in the South was brought on by some of those countries' Govts acquiring too much debt (ring any bellls?).
The crash of 2008, caused by USA banking initially, made matters much worse.

The Euro has also been of some benefit of course. To be able to move money across National boundaries without exchange tariffs is very useful too.
The rapacious banks don't get their greedy cut!
One could argue that remaining outside of the Euro was a significant cause of increased immigration into the UK for many years because the pound was strong. This factor is now reduced/removed and immigration has fallen.
Sadly we as workers will not he able to benefit much longer from any reversal of that situation.

Many poorer regions of Europe have benefitted from funding, Wales amongst them.
Infrastructure and housing improvement projects for example.
And cleaner seas.
It is doubtful that without EU pressure much would have been done by local authorities here, to clean up sewage treatment - it was long a disgrace!

I do not see successive domestic Govts as more trustworthy or competent than the EU.
Quite the opposite actually.
We have in the last 30 odd years seen a litany of poor decisions from them.
In many cases the EU has been "greener" thinking and more responsible towards its citizens, more interested in giving the weaker sectors an equitable deal.
We are not all Alan Sugar types, thank goodness.
Or "Little Englanders" either, come to that.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 6 Jul 2018, 10:22am, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 6 Jul 2018, 9:41am

Ben@Forest wrote:And we are of course not in the euro but l am pretty concerned about the suffering the euro has brought to huge swathes of Europe, especially the young unemployed in southern Europe. Those who don't recognise that really are 'Little Englanders'.


Yes they really need to do something about that youth unemployment. How about they raise they school leaving age to 18, send 50% of their young to university and introduce zero hours contracts. With the latter a person can eeffectively be unemployed for most of the time but doesn't appear in the unemployment statistics.
Last edited by pete75 on 6 Jul 2018, 9:47am, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 6 Jul 2018, 9:42am

BrianFox wrote:
The UK can produce enough food,


Not sure if this is tongue in check or not, but it's about three centuries since the UK was self sufficient in food.

I'm not sure mass famine was the intended way to reduce immigration...

I believe it, there is plenty of marginal land that could be brought back into use
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