** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 11:32am

There was certain value in going to a vote, when people entered it with the fair minded attitude of accepting the result as deciding which path to follow.


The result clearly did not decide which path to follow, as surely must be painfully evident given it's taken two years - two years! - for the govt to decide it's own position.

A position which will now be rejected by the EU, followed by further compromises and retreats from the ideology.

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 11 Jul 2018, 11:34am

Hi all, I seem to recall that for getting us hooked up to the European Dream Ted Heath got the money for a new ocean going yacht, Morning Cloud, we got to pay for having it's bottom scraped! Twas ever the case. MM :roll:

stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 11 Jul 2018, 11:40am

Ministers draw up secret plans to stockpile processed food in case of a ‘no deal’ Brexit

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6747231/m ... ssed-food/

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 11:41am

This is why second referendum is good idea - with two clear choices: the best Brexit deal that the govt could negotiate or staying in EU.

Which is a perfect mechanism to subvert the result of the first referendum.
A previously remain voting PM leading a remain voting cabinet reaches a crap deal with the EU and says take that or remain.

The Daily Mail, Sun and Telegraph will tear that idea to shreds.

The subversion needs to be more subtle than that.
Two separate leave options and remain, thereby splitting the leave vote. Still too obvious though.

I saw a rather clever suggestion of a three way vote with transferable second votes which would of course channel all the votes into the middle option, that middle option being something with a brexit title but little brexit content. Yet it would harvest the first votes of the middle ground and the second votes of both extremes.
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mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 11 Jul 2018, 11:45am

How about this?

1. Continue Good Friday Agreement
2. Continue United Kingdom
3. Brexit

Choose any two. You must choose two or your vote will be invalidated.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 11:50am

A previously remain voting PM leading a remain voting cabinet reaches a crap deal with the EU and says take that or remain.


C'mon, you can do better than that. Davis, Fox and Johnson were at the centre of this and failed to deliver their fantasy.

The Daily Mail


Owned by an ultra wealthy tax exile

Sun


Owned by an ultra wealthy Australian who took US citizenship to avoid ownership laws

and Telegraph


Owned by ultra wealthy tax exiles

Spotted the trend yet?

will tear that idea to shreds.


Sure they will. They don't like an informed electorate.

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 11:52am

BrianFox wrote:
There was certain value in going to a vote, when people entered it with the fair minded attitude of accepting the result as deciding which path to follow.


The result clearly did not decide which path to follow, as surely must be painfully evident given it's taken two years - two years! - for the govt to decide it's own position.

A position which will now be rejected by the EU, followed by further compromises and retreats from the ideology.


There could be other reasons for the delay. It rather fits with my first post on this thread.
There is no intention of delivering Brexit but it has to look as if they are trying to do so.
Grind the opposition down rather than direct confrontation.
Delay triggering article 50, two years debating (possible extension), two year transition (extension tried for but lost), then what next?
A long time has passed since "independence day" and nothing has been delivered and nothing is about to be delivered. I imagine they are keeping a careful watch that they dont push things too far and just waiting for the right time (article 50 deadline?) to pull the fake brexit rabbit out of the hat.
Yma o Hyd

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 11:57am

There could be other reasons for the delay


I think Hanlon's Razor applies here:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 12:00pm

BrianFox wrote:
A previously remain voting PM leading a remain voting cabinet reaches a crap deal with the EU and says take that or remain.


C'mon, you can do better than that. Davis, Fox and Johnson were at the centre of this and failed to deliver their fantasy.

The Daily Mail


Owned by an ultra wealthy tax exile

Sun


Owned by an ultra wealthy Australian who took US citizenship to avoid ownership laws

and Telegraph


Owned by ultra wealthy tax exiles

Spotted the trend yet?

will tear that idea to shreds.


Sure they will. They don't like an informed electorate.

Davis and Johnson are now gone from the cabinet the present option being offered is from a cabinet after a purge of leave campaigners from its ranks.
Their readers show a similar level of distrust and skepticism to their newspapers as do the readers of papers with a similar bias from the other side do to their papers.
They all like to try and control their readers rather than to just provide unbiased information.
Yma o Hyd

stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 11 Jul 2018, 12:02pm

'Arguments for and against referendum on the final deal complex and important.

However, if another referendum was held on known exit terms and leave commanded majority, I’d back it as settled, informed decision. That’s my arguement for having one'

Professor Brian Cox

I would agree

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 12:04pm

BrianFox wrote:
There could be other reasons for the delay


I think Hanlon's Razor applies here:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity


That is what makes it all a rather interesting experiment.
I can see my world view-point being put to the test.
If we are a real free democracy we can be allowed to fall to our demise as we have chosen.
If we are not agents of free choice then our betters will step in and save us from ourselves.
Yma o Hyd

brynpoeth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jul 2018, 12:04pm

stu1102 wrote:Ministers draw up secret plans to stockpile processed food in case of a ‘no deal’ Brexit

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6747231/m ... ssed-food/

Time to take up allotment gardening so food exports are unnecessary :wink:
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 12:07pm

stu1102 wrote:'Arguments for and against referendum on the final deal complex and important.

However, if another referendum was held on known exit terms and leave commanded majority, I’d back it as settled, informed decision. That’s my arguement for having one'

Professor Brian Cox

I would agree


Who wouldnt?
The sticky point is that he is probably assuming that voting against the particular deal means voting to remain in the EU. Others would support this second referendum if the choice was between this and no-deal as we have already voted to leave not remain.
Yma o Hyd

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 12:09pm

If we are a real free democracy we can be allowed to fall to our demise as we have chosen.


Ah - a Menckenist!

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken

Vorpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jul 2018, 12:18pm

meic wrote:That is what makes it all a rather interesting experiment.
I can see my world view-point being put to the test.
If we are a real free democracy we can be allowed to fall to our demise as we have chosen.
If we are not agents of free choice then our betters will step in and save us from ourselves.

If it is a fall or demise, is it fair for the minority who chose this to take the rest with?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom