** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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stu1102
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 11 Jul 2018, 12:26pm

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 12:38pm

That was only half of the story.
Our Prime Minister promised to honour the result of the referendum and also said he would pull out of the single market accepting it as part of the package. Unlike the voices on the other side he was speaking as the person with the responsibility for leading the way forward.

A randomly selected sample of what he was saying to people on the eve of the vote.
https://www.politico.eu/article/david-c ... nces-news/
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 12:43pm

Vorpal wrote:
meic wrote:That is what makes it all a rather interesting experiment.
I can see my world view-point being put to the test.
If we are a real free democracy we can be allowed to fall to our demise as we have chosen.
If we are not agents of free choice then our betters will step in and save us from ourselves.

If it is a fall or demise, is it fair for the minority who chose this to take the rest with?

No, but that's democracy for you.
Has there ever been a larger "minority" making such a decision in UK history?
Normally it is a much smaller minority than that which makes the decisions.

However if our democracy is only skin deep, then it will be a infinitesimally small minority which makes the actual decision, over ruling the 17million people minority.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jul 2018, 12:46pm

meic wrote:However if our democracy is only skin deep, then it will be a infinitesimally small minority which makes the actual decision, over ruling the 17million people minority.

And if, as expected, the Electoral Commission find that fraud has been committed against the people of the UK?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 12:51pm

It would be a pretty feeble excuse for overturning the result.

There has to a threshold for saying it materially affected the outcome.
There were perfectly legal but very unfair things done by the remain side, like using £9m of public money to support remain just before triggering the race and the funding restrictions.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 1:02pm

Has there ever been a larger "minority" making such a decision in UK history?


As you have repeatedly pointed out, there is no consistency across leave voters as to what leave means practically.

So I don't think you can claim any policy beyond "Leave" as being backed by that referendum majority.

Which means anything decided beyond that should be fine.

I have to say, though, that you've struggled to keep a consistent line through these exchanges. That's not intended as a criticism, but rather to illustrate why any attempt to be binary about what does, or does not keep faith with the original vote is nigh on impossible.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 1:13pm

I cant see anything that I disagree with there.

The acid test with what constitutes effectively leaving the EU, is if enough of the public believe it to be so to avoid politically tearing the whole place down.

Much loathed as various papers are, they will not let the papers of the remain side get away with trying to help sneak things past the electorate.

If the powers that be decide to nullify the referendum result on the grounds of financial irregularities and the government use this to get off the hook, you can expect to see UKIP coming out of the next General Election in a much stronger position and plenty of other populist parties alongside them.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 11 Jul 2018, 1:21pm

meic wrote:It would be a pretty feeble excuse for overturning the result.

There has to a threshold for saying it materially affected the outcome.


What is that threshold and who should determine what 'materially affected' means?
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 1:33pm

I think there is one likely outcome from where we are now, and two unlikely but not impossible ones.

1. Likely. We muddle on through with a further compromised version of the white paper. It won't be disastrous, but will deliver none of the benefits promised and regarded by significant minority as betrayal.

2. Very unlikely. Second ref reverses Brexit, offering options of (1) or remain.

3. Vanishingly unlikely. Negotiations fail, "Hard Brexit" along WTO lines. Food shortages, economic crash, UK disintegration etc.

Certain: worse outcome and more divided country than when we started.

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 1:39pm

and more divided country than when we started.


I will put my neck on the line and lay the blame firmly on those people who lack the grace to accept the majority decision. I had my vote and we lost, I am accepting defeat with grace and getting on with those who won the vote quite happily.

The country will certainly be worse but that will be more due to Universal Credit than Brexit.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 11 Jul 2018, 1:42pm

meic wrote:
stu1102 wrote:'Arguments for and against referendum on the final deal complex and important.

However, if another referendum was held on known exit terms and leave commanded majority, I’d back it as settled, informed decision. That’s my arguement for having one'

Professor Brian Cox

I would agree


Who wouldnt?
The sticky point is that he is probably assuming that voting against the particular deal means voting to remain in the EU. Others would support this second referendum if the choice was between this and no-deal as we have already voted to leave not remain.
Yep.

Another vote would be on Deal or No Deal.

meic wrote:
and more divided country than when we started.


I will put my neck on the line and lay the blame firmly on those people who lack the grace to accept the majority decision. I had my vote and we lost, I am accepting defeat with grace and getting on with those who won the vote quite happily.

The country will certainly be worse but that will be more due to Universal Credit than Brexit.
Spot on.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 11 Jul 2018, 1:49pm

I will put my neck on the line and lay the blame firmly on those people who lack the grace to accept the majority decision.


I continue to be mystified by your advocating accepting the majority decision and decrying solutions which you say betray that vote whilst simultaneously pointing out that the vote wasn't a clear decision on what to actually do!

I'll put my neck on the line and lay the blame on instigating a referendum with the sole purpose of avoiding conflict within the Tory party, regardless of the consequence to the country.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jul 2018, 1:52pm

BrianFox wrote:
I will put my neck on the line and lay the blame firmly on those people who lack the grace to accept the majority decision.


I continue to be mystified by your advocating accepting the majority decision and decrying solutions which you say betray that vote whilst simultaneously pointing out that the vote wasn't a clear decision on what to actually do!

I'll put my neck on the line and lay the blame on instigating a referendum with the sole purpose of avoiding conflict within the Tory party, regardless of the consequence to the country.

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 11 Jul 2018, 2:05pm

I continue to be mystified by your advocating accepting the majority decision and decrying solutions which you say betray that vote whilst simultaneously pointing out that the vote wasn't a clear decision on what to actually do!

I dont think that I can explain it any further, so I will just repeat it.

The vote was to leave the EU, that much was clear. David Cameron (PM) even stated in the official government leaflet that this meant leave the single market. He was both PM and leader of remain, so that constitutes "the official position".
Failure to do that would betray the vote.

Once that is done the UK is free to do whatever it likes, even re-join the EU (though possibly not by the same Tory party that claimed this would not be a possibility :wink: ). If any politician fancies their chances of running with such a policy and getting elected.

Setting up some sort of deal while leaving the EU seems a good pragmatic course to take. But here we enter a grey area, where some will seek to pull a fast one and arrange a fake exit. Others on the other side of the fence will see a purely pragmatic measure as a betrayal.
They would have to have somebody who they trust sell it to them.
Oh, David Davies and BJ just quit because they were asked to do that selling.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jul 2018, 2:16pm

meic wrote:
I continue to be mystified by your advocating accepting the majority decision and decrying solutions which you say betray that vote whilst simultaneously pointing out that the vote wasn't a clear decision on what to actually do!

I dont think that I can explain it any further, so I will just repeat it.

The vote was to leave the EU, that much was clear. David Cameron (PM) even stated in the official government leaflet that this meant leave the single market. He was both PM and leader of remain, so that constitutes "the official position".
Failure to do that would betray the vote.

Once that is done the UK is free to do whatever it likes, even re-join the EU (though possibly not by the same Tory party that claimed this would not be a possibility :wink: ). If any politician fancies their chances of running with such a policy and getting elected.

Setting up some sort of deal while leaving the EU seems a good pragmatic course to take. But here we enter a grey area, where some will seek to pull a fast one and arrange a fake exit. Others on the other side of the fence will see a purely pragmatic measure as a betrayal.
They would have to have somebody who they trust sell it to them.
Oh, David Davies and BJ just quit because they were asked to do that selling.


But the bit I've highlighted simply isn't so. It's free to try to do whatever it likes, subject to the likes and dislikes of others involved. This may seem so self-evident that it does not need noting, but a large part of the Leave publicity seemed to ignore it.