** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[PDQ Mobile]

It's not unusual, this issue of not being reresented.
Perhaps even more usual than unusual.

For example, my relative and reasonable "green" views have been under represented in Parliament for years!!
And have not been espoused in any concrete form by my MP ever!

((Ps. It's a reason for PR!
But no thread drift please.))

[roubaixtuesday]

We have a representative democracy.

This referendum calamity is a great example of why it's a good system of government, remembering of course that more generally democracy is the worst system of government there is, except for the others.

Read your Edmund Burke.

Theorists such as Edmund Burke believe that part of the duty of a representative was not simply to communicate the wishes of the electorate but also to use their own judgement in the exercise of their powers, even if their views are not reflective of those of a majority of voters:[6]

...it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

[Paulatic]

On 23 June ‘16 every constituency in Scotland voted Remain. On 16 July ‘18 every Tory MP representing a seat in Scotland voted with pro-Hard Brexit

and people wonder why we want Independence

[Cugel]

Next step?

Dunno the absolute figures here, but there were twice as many constituencies who voted for Leave, than there are Leave MPs.
This means that there are 50% of MPs representing Leave constituencies who aren't representing their electorates' views.

Therefore, May should resign and the government should fall and trigger a general election.
The candidates should then reflect the views of their constituencies regarding Leave or Remain.
That way, we would have a parliament reflecting the views of the people.

Surely it's preferable for an MP to represent his or her constituents' interests rather than their views? The views of many constituents are abhorrent on various matters. Moreover, it isn't possible to represent all constituents'' views as they will be not just different but opposing, across the constituency.

No, an MP is there to represent our overall interests, including those which seem to be in opposition to our often ill-informed and over-emotional views.

Cugel

[Cugel]

Of course, modern politicians have moved well away from this statesman-like model. Consider a Trump or a BoJo, who seem happy to sacrifice the interests of the whole nation and everyone in it as they quest for personal power and riches....

This is a highly selective and rose-tinted view. Many politicians have been in office to promote either their or their very small number of voting constituents views whether that was to do with e.g. agriculture, building ships or avoiding taxes. Plenty of more modern politicians fit this mould - a criticism levelled at Harold Wilson is that really he saw politics as a game to play and had no original ideas - and was the politician who started what is now shameless flirtation with the world of celebrity.

As they say, people don't change and neither do politicians. For every Frank Field we will get a Margaret Moran.

Which is MY rose-tinted bit? Is it naïve to regard modern politicians as self-serving or unrealistic to think that a politician can be a statesman?

Personally I think both are not just possible but historically demonstrable. Even today there are a few politicians who, overall, are more statesman than incompetent self-seeking creep. If only the better variety were in charge instead of relegated to whipping fodder, eh!?

Cugel

[Mick F]

On 23 June ‘16 every constituency in Scotland voted Remain. On 16 July ‘18 every Tory MP representing a seat in Scotland voted with pro-Hard Brexit

and people wonder why we want Independence

Exactly!

I don't think you are correct in all you say.
As far as I've found out so far, the Brexit referendum "facts" aren't listed by MP seats but by area.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_ ... ts/local/a

The results of the EU referendum weren’t counted by parliamentary constituency, so we don’t know for sure how constituencies voted.

[GasPipeWarrior]

On 23 June ‘16 every constituency in Scotland voted Remain. On 16 July ‘18 every Tory MP representing a seat in Scotland voted with pro-Hard Brexit

and people wonder why we want Independence

Exactly!

I don't think you are correct in all you say.
As far as I've found out so far, the Brexit referendum "facts" aren't listed by MP seats but by area.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_ ... ts/local/a

The results of the EU referendum weren’t counted by parliamentary constituency, so we don’t know for sure how constituencies voted.

You may need to search by individual local authorities as they were responsible for the organisation and operation of the referendum in their area.

For example Birmingham City Council have the referendum results available to download from their website, and the results are broken down to Constituency and Ward level.

[roubaixtuesday]

Estimated votes by constituency:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results ... nstituency

Validation of those results where possible and estimates of error

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/pa ... stituency/

[Bowedw]

and people wonder why we want Independence

I believe the Scottish people voted to remain with the UK?
Another referendum result that did not go the way the minority voted!
Maybe time to do away with Democracy completely which seems to be the way the Liberals and Labour think and just let Politicians carry on troughing in the great EU for which the average family is paying heavily for financially.
Time to get real I think and move on.

[Vorpal]

the great EU for which the average family is paying heavily for financially.

Can you please explain this, in detail. How much did you personally pay for the EU last year?

[pete75]

and people wonder why we want Independence

I believe the Scottish people voted to remain with the UK?
Another referendum result that did not go the way the minority voted!

They also voted to remain in the EU. One of the arguments put forward by the anti independence side in the independence referendum was that if Scotland voted to leave the UK they would no longer be members of the EU.

[Bowedw]

Can you please explain this, in detail. How much did you personally pay for the EU last year?

My contribution towards the gravy train 50 million a day but I am fortunate that my income is not dependent upon a low paid job like many who are finding themselves having to compete with foreign workers. No doubt the racist card will now be used but it's a fact that living in the UK is expensive.
Foreign leave their families at home and come here to work, live in abysmal conditions to send money home where the money goes much further. Not fair on them to have to be parted from their families and not fair on the UK citizens on low salaries as well having to compete in our economy. No wonder there is such a rich/ poor divide.
Seems that the remain camp have only their own insulated existence in mind.
Very many remainers I expect are running businesses and reaping the benefit of this cheap labour for their own wealth.
They also are in many circumstances providing the low grade rooms.
If you fail to see the reality then you need to get out more and see what is going on.
Most of the EU labour I have come across are really nice, very hard working people, but will confess to feeling miffed when behind a couple in a supermarket checkout they suddenly let in about four other couples of friends or family without batting an eyelid.

[pete75]

Can you please explain this, in detail. How much did you personally pay for the EU last year?

My contribution towards the gravy train 50 million a day but I am fortunate that my income is not dependent upon a low paid job like many who are finding themselves having to compete with foreign workers. No doubt the racist card will now be used but it's a fact that living in the UK is expensive.
Foreign leave their families at home and come here to work, live in abysmal conditions to send money home where the money goes much further. Not fair on them to have to be parted from their families and not fair on the UK citizens on low salaries as well having to compete in our economy. No wonder there is such a rich/ poor divide.
Seems that the remain camp have only their own insulated existence in mind.
Very many remainers I expect are running businesses and reaping the benefit of this cheap labour for their own wealth.
They also are in many circumstances providing the low grade rooms.
If you fail to see the reality then you need to get out more and see what is going on.
Most of the EU labour I have come across are really nice, very hard working people, but will confess to feeling miffed when behind a couple in a supermarket checkout they suddenly let in about four other couples of friends or family without batting an eyelid.

You're damned right you're not in a low paid job if your contribution towards the EU is 50 million a day. Try and answer the question accurately please.

[reohn2]

On 23 June ‘16 every constituency in Scotland voted Remain. On 16 July ‘18 every Tory MP representing a seat in Scotland voted with pro-Hard Brexit

and people wonder why we want Independence

I don't

[Bowedw]

You're right you're not in a low paid job if your contribution towards the EU is 50 million a day. Try and answer the question accurately please.

No reason to be personal and petty and as english is not my first language I feel I am not doing to bad. I have removed the inappropriate word from your statement and would respectfully ask you to do the same as I believe this forum is promoted as suitable for all ages.
I contribute my share as a taxpayer towards the 50 million that UK is throwing away.
Lived through the whole process from the beginning of the so called Common Market, UK food industry, fishing industry just to name a couple just decimated and that was only the beginning.
Thank goodness the majority took the opportunity to use their vote wisely.

Scotland is another matter and I do feel the remain in the UK offered many carrots but at least it was not a once only vote and they can put it to the vote again.
The EU referendum was UK wide first past the post result not a region by region decision something that many of our elected representatives cannot come to terms with.
Leaving the EU referendum was a once only opportunity I understand but maybe a vote in forty years time would be appropriate