** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[mjr]

When we have the Foreign Secretary equating the EU to the Soviet Union I know the UK is in deep do doah.

Did you hear what he said or what he is reported as having said?
As usual the media have amplified things.

The way in which he was using the comparison didnt upset me at all.
He was equating the two with respect to one particular trait, not every aspect of the two federations.

Yes, I heard it. It seems pretty offensive to me, basically likening the Article 50 process to shooting people trying to emigrate. Here's the words, give or take transcription errors. Unsurprisingly, he doesn't seem to have published the speech on his website yet.

Europe needs to understand that 52% of the country aren't rabid populists trying to build fortress britain. We fought - as we heard from Gavin just now - we fought for peace on our continent and none of us are ever going to turn our back on history but nor - and I want to address our European friends directly now - nor should you turn your back on history either.

At the moment you European friends seem to think the way to keep the club together is to punish a member who leaves not just with economic disruption but even by breaking up the United Kingdom with a border down the Irish Sea. Now, what happened to the confidence and ideals of the European dream? The EU was set up to protect freedom - it was the Soviet Union that stopped people leaving and the lesson from history is clear: if you turn the EU club into a prison the desire to get out of it won't diminish it'll grow and we won't be the only prisoner that will want to escape.

Now, I agree with you that much of the media seem to be more pro-stirring than pro-news at the moment, regardless of their Leave/Remain direction, but this was so obviously offensive and a huge gift to the stirrers that I suspect the foreign office now needs to replace a few desks damaged by heads. What the heck was he and/or his speech writer thinking? It's barely one step away from invoking Godwin's law! Is he using Bodge-o as a role model?

And that's ignoring all the other things wrong with his speech, like that it's Cameron not the EU which may have broken up the UK by snookering itself with mutually-exclusive pledges to NI, Scotland and Leavers.

[Mick F]

Yes, I heard it. It seems pretty offensive to me, basically likening the Article 50 process to shooting people trying to emigrate.

Not in the least bit offensive ............ and nothing was inferred about shooting people.

[mjr]

Yes, I heard it. It seems pretty offensive to me, basically likening the Article 50 process to shooting people trying to emigrate.

Not in the least bit offensive ............ and nothing was inferred about shooting people.

Now who's being ignorant of history? How do you think the Soviet Union "stopped people leaving" if not things like security fences, trace control strips and border troops authorised to use lethal force? Depending who you believe, the border death toll was between hundreds and many thousands.

[roubaixtuesday]

Not in the least bit offensive ..

Not to you.

Unfortunately, those the insult is aimed at are offended. And we need the goodwill and agreement of these people to get what we want. Not clever, not in the national interest, and done to appease euro sceptics in the Tory party.

Latvian ambassador

“Just for your information - Soviets killed, deported, exiled and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Latvia's inhabitants after the illegal occupation in 1940, and ruined lives of three generations, while the EU has brought prosperity, equality, growth, respect.”

Estonian Ambassador

"EU and USSR not comparable. Soviet regime was brutal, I lived under it, comparison is insulting"

[Cyril Haearn]

Germany used to have a border like that, it was opened in 1989

[Mick F]

Exactly.

As for comparing the USSR to the EU, it wasn't being compared to shooting or killing, it was comparing the restrictions in travel.

[roubaixtuesday]

it wasn't being compared to shooting or killing, it was comparing the restrictions in travel.

It was intended as an insult. It worked - read what those on the receiving end thought.

Ask yourself whether antagonizing countries whose support we need is a good idea or not.

[al_yrpal]

Actually Hunt seemed to me to be addressing the EUs wish to keep the Superstate together by making it very difficult to leave. They are paranoid about keeping Greece and Italy in because lots of their citizens want to leave and they fear competition from the leaver nations freed of their red tape.

The usual cries of anguish from deliberate fake misinterpreters.

Al

[mjr]

As for comparing the USSR to the EU, it wasn't being compared to shooting or killing, it was comparing the restrictions in travel.

Please quote the part of the speech which said it was about travel restrictions.

[bovlomov]

Aren't all these Tories complaining about the laws that the UK helped to draft and signed up to? It's the rules.

The problem is, we were told how easy it would be to leave, and we were told that the EU would be begging for our trade - and any one who disputed that (i.e. almost everyone involved in international trade negotiations) was accused of being part of 'Project Fear'.

Just about everything prominent Brexiters promised has fallen apart in the light of day - and now they're looking for a scapegoat. Hunt, of course, wasn't one of them, but he knows what will whip up the conference audience, and he's making his pitch for leadership.

[mjr]

Actually Hunt seemed to me to be addressing the EUs wish to keep the Superstate together by making it very difficult to leave. They are paranoid about keeping Greece and Italy in because lots of their citizens want to leave and they fear competition from the leaver nations freed of their red tape.

The usual cries of anguish from deliberate fake misinterpreters.

I think the first paragraph is from one of those "deliberate fake misinterpreters". The EU has made it easy to leave by adding Article 50 to the treaties. If they are paranoid about anything, it's the UK walking away without paying up for its commitments to fund British MEP and EU civil servant pensions and other projects. I don't think they fear competition from the UK and if we want to sell to the EU, our businesses won't be freed of their red tape - much of which was UK red tape forum-shopped or gold-plated anyway.

[al_yrpal]

I agree, its not as bad as last weeks fantasy Trotfest though. No sign of a similar pension and savings raid… yet

Al

[Flinders]

This sort of uproar about such a petty point will no doubt help to consolidate his position.

Of course. That's why he said it, to dog whistle to Tory party members.

Most of his supporters will be absolutely gobsmacked at this reaction and be thinking for god's sake when will the media "grow up". All this petty partisan squabbling about petty trivia is destroying any real conversation and just fortifying division

It's not the media. Many people in the EU and in national governments suffered directly and personally from Soviet occupation or their client states. Polish, Latvian and Estonian ambassadors and politicians have commented directly. His words wilfully destroy goodwill with these people, done with the purpose of appealing to his own party.

In other words, he's putting Tory party management ahead of the national interest. Which is, of course, the story of Brexit.

Quite. And as every single Eu country can veto any deal, all you have to do is brass off one of them and you're onto no-deal territory. Some of those smaller countries have very little to lose if we drop out with no deal, because they don't export to us. It was going to be difficult enough to get them in favour of any deal even before Hunt blew his dogwhistle to his resident xenophobes. And it's even more ironic, seeing as Russia wanted us out of the EU so they could weaken the EU and divide and rule Europe, and they appear to have been very successful in their meddling in the big con that was the leave vote.

[reohn2]

Actually Hunt seemed to me to be addressing the EUs wish to keep the Superstate together by making it very difficult to leave. They are paranoid about keeping Greece and Italy in because lots of their citizens want to leave and they fear competition from the leaver nations freed of their red tape.

The usual cries of anguish from deliberate fake misinterpreters.

Al

Wake up!
There is no Superstate,nor will there be any unless all member states agree to one.
It's the UK who's made leaving difficult by it's unreasonable demands and thinking it can have it's cake and eat it!
Greece,Italy; there's lots of people in member states who wish to leave but is there a large majority in any one country for that country to want to leave?
IMHO it's generally the rules and regulations of the EU that make it strong,and dare I say stable?

[Psamathe]

Actually Hunt seemed to me to be addressing the EUs wish to keep the Superstate together by making it very difficult to leave. They are paranoid about keeping Greece and Italy in because lots of their citizens want to leave and they fear competition from the leaver nations freed of their red tape.

The usual cries of anguish from deliberate fake misinterpreters.

Al

The EU is not making it difficult for the UK to leave. The difficulty comes from the UK wanting/demanding special cherry picking terms the EU is not prepared to offer. We can leave easily, we just can't get what the Conservative Party seem to be trying to demand.

Ian