** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Cugel]

Unless the population of a country is habituated to making choices via referendums and has the associated and well-developed sense of duty that is entailed by being a citizen (perhaps Switzerland but nowhere else) a choice via referendum is a very undemocratic mechanism. In a country full of infantilised people long tutored in the me-my-I of the neoliberal hegemony, mesmerised by the mass media, a referendum is merely the rule of the mob. Can anyone deny, via convincing evidence, that either "side" in this disastrous vote did anything other than parrot what their favourite mass media bullhorn blew into their ears?

The notion of a representative democracy is that the citizens vote for a set of high level policies in the form of a political party. They hand over trust and responsibility to those voted into Parliament - the trust that they will responsibly look to the National Interest: a sum of everyone's interests somehow balanced to achieve the greater good of the vast majority, preferably every citizen not just their ideological supporters. If a political party initially thinks a policy will be good but discovers, in exploring its ramifications, that it will be bad, their responsibility is to change their minds; or at least find a better policy that will be in the National Interest.

Of course, the current political parties have both failed to do this, on many occasions not just this Brexit occasion. But that doesn't justify handing over the responsibility for such huge decisions as those involved with Brexit to the mob - any mob, of either flavour. The mob should never have had a say in the first place. The mob has, if anything, become more mob-like since they had a taste of being listened to as if their nasty emotive yells for blood were of any value other than to a would-be demagogue.

If politicians can't or won't discharge their responsibilities to all of us then we have a different choice. Allow their oligarchy to rule via all the substandard means of some flavour of a totalitarian populist state (they can be left-wing, right-wing, up-wing or down-wing) .... or revert to an effective anarchy in which "survival of the fittest" becomes the only rule. The problem there is, fittest for what? Generally it will be "best at predating on, exploiting or simply eradicating others". This will effectively mean the final triumph of the most egregious right-wing monsters of the Trump ilk. Already we see them emerging throughout the world - sleeping ghouls conjured up by the rank stink and depraved chants of the mob.

Cugel

[reohn2]

Forgive me for not reading the 500+ pages above. This might have been covered before.

Does anyone else have the suspicion that somewhere around the levers-of-power the gameplan was to manoeuvre the political situation into such a god-awful, terrifying mess that the referendum would eventually be rerun ?

See Kwackers post above about it not actually being a referendum on remain or leave but on what sort of deal the UK wants.

For my part I wish a remain v brexit referendum would be rerun to see if the UK public is still in the same frame of mind it was two years ago.

[mjr]

Forgive me for not reading the 500+ pages above. This might have been covered before.

Does anyone else have the suspicion that somewhere around the levers-of-power the gameplan was to manoeuvre the political situation into such a god-awful, terrifying mess that the referendum would eventually be rerun ?

I wonder if a few of the MPs who benefit financially from currency fluctuations are trying to increase uncertainty, but I feel it's more cock-up than conspiracy from those currently leading the omnishambles. I think we're now almost too late for a third referendum and pointless when the criminals from the second are still free to campaign and lie again.

The best likely result is BrINO, Brexit In Name Only, but it's more likely this government will fudge together some sort of transition agreement ratified in last-minute late-night sessions of parliament next March to almost universal disdain and dissatisfaction, kicking the economic grenade a few years down the road.

[reohn2]

Unless the population of a country is habituated to making choices via referendums and has the associated and well-developed sense of duty that is entailed by being a citizen (perhaps Switzerland but nowhere else) a choice via referendum is a very undemocratic mechanism. In a country full of infantilised people long tutored in the me-my-I of the neoliberal hegemony, mesmerised by the mass media, a referendum is merely the rule of the mob. Can anyone deny, via convincing evidence, that either "side" in this disastrous vote did anything other than parrot what their favourite mass media bullhorn blew into their ears?

The notion of a representative democracy is that the citizens vote for a set of high level policies in the form of a political party. They hand over trust and responsibility to those voted into Parliament - the trust that they will responsibly look to the National Interest: a sum of everyone's interests somehow balanced to achieve the greater good of the vast majority, preferably every citizen not just their ideological supporters. If a political party initially thinks a policy will be good but discovers, in exploring its ramifications, that it will be bad, their responsibility is to change their minds; or at least find a better policy that will be in the National Interest.

Of course, the current political parties have both failed to do this, on many occasions not just this Brexit occasion. But that doesn't justify handing over the responsibility for such huge decisions as those involved with Brexit to the mob - any mob, of either flavour. The mob should never have had a say in the first place. The mob has, if anything, become more mob-like since they had a taste of being listened to as if their nasty emotive yells for blood were of any value other than to a would-be demagogue.

If politicians can't or won't discharge their responsibilities to all of us then we have a different choice. Allow their oligarchy to rule via all the substandard means of some flavour of a totalitarian populist state (they can be left-wing, right-wing, up-wing or down-wing) .... or revert to an effective anarchy in which "survival of the fittest" becomes the only rule. The problem there is, fittest for what? Generally it will be "best at predating on, exploiting or simply eradicating others". This will effectively mean the final triumph of the most egregious right-wing monsters of the Trump ilk. Already we see them emerging throughout the world - sleeping ghouls conjured up by the rank stink and depraved chants of the mob.

Cugel

Plus a very definite ONE!

[Psamathe]

I see things have stepped-up a little in the "challenges" facing May from her own party as she has now been summoned before the 1922 Committee

The prime minister has been told to attend a so-called show trial at the 1922 committee of Conservatives on Wednesday, after last week's crunch summit in Brussels broke up without a deal on Britain exit terms.

Amid an outpouring of backbench anger, ex-Brexit secretary David Davis said Ms May had "managed to anger not just Leavers but ardent Remainers as well", in an article where he set out his own vision for Brexit, and prompted speculation about his leadership ambitions.
...
Tory MP Andrew Bridgen told the Mail on Sunday: .....
"If she doesn't turn up to the 1922 that will only make the letters go in even faster."

Ian

[661-Pete]

Forgive me for not reading the 500+ pages above. This might have been covered before.

Nor have I. I'm just at this moment re-reading War and Peace as it happens - and that's a far easier read!

Does anyone else have the suspicion that somewhere around the levers-of-power the gameplan was to manoeuvre the political situation into such a god-awful, terrifying mess that the referendum would eventually be rerun ?

Well, I have to assume it wasn't we Remainers being accused of such a dastardly deed! Indeed, there's been no need for any Remainer to carry out such a manipulation. The Brex**iteers are doing a damn good job of it themselves...

[pete75]

I see things have stepped-up a little in the "challenges" facing May from her own party as she has now been summoned before the 1922 Committee

The prime minister has been told to attend a so-called show trial at the 1922 committee of Conservatives on Wednesday, after last week's crunch summit in Brussels broke up without a deal on Britain exit terms.

Amid an outpouring of backbench anger, ex-Brexit secretary David Davis said Ms May had "managed to anger not just Leavers but ardent Remainers as well", in an article where he set out his own vision for Brexit, and prompted speculation about his leadership ambitions.
...
Tory MP Andrew Bridgen told the Mail on Sunday: .....
"If she doesn't turn up to the 1922 that will only make the letters go in even faster."

Ian

Davis is complaining about "the flawed strategy to date" . Would this be the same David Davis who was in charge of Brexit for the best part of two years.

[mr bajokoses]

Am I correct in saying that the Leave voters voted through raw emotion, and the Remain voters voted thoughtfully and intelligently?

No… its not intelligent to Remain in the protectionist anti democratic Superstate dominated by two nations. The EU started out as a protectionist enterprise and continues like that to this day. The Metroplitan Elite supported by a raft of UK resident EU citizens, Academia and the naive turned out in force yesterday but Leavers are still here. If its emotional to want to make our own laws, control our own borders and fisheries and trade around the world with whomsoever we want on terms that we negotiate I would say that thats pretty logical rather than emotional. Emotion and fear clearly drive Remain with idiotic people making unwarranted racist slurs.


Al

Funny that, we were discussing 'uninformed tosh' only a few pages back. Thanks for your latest example.

[mr bajokoses]

If the Gov. really doesn't listen, the big fear is rioting in the streets - or even civil war...

Clearly illustrating that many dont understand what democracy means. Basically the Remainers world is just like the EU, undemocratic.

Al

Democracy is constant evolution of thought, and includes free speech. Yesterday's march was a superb example of democracy in action. Or would you prefer all remainers be silenced?

700,000 marchers is a real danger to the present 'government', to be ignored at their peril.

[Mick F]

Been down the pub, so I'm feeling argumentative.

Am I correct in saying that the Leave voters voted through raw emotion, and the Remain voters voted thoughtfully and intelligently?

At least the forum is aware of your political slant, so we can easily recognise sarcasm!

You've sussed me out.

But what you say is essentially true ....................... I'm angry at the whole lot of them.............
I'm still angry. But the Leavers don't care.

True, we don't care.
Does it actually matter?

[reohn2]

If the whole of the brexit debacle has shown up anything at all from the ordinary wo/man on the street(or Clapham Omnibus if you prefer) it's what a totally incompetent and splintered into many fragments the present government and Tory party is and of it's only interest being in a small portion of UK society.
For anyone who was in any doubt about that fact before now you know!

[Mick F]

If the whole of the brexit debacle has shown up anything at all from the ordinary wo/man on the street(or Clapham Omnibus if you prefer) it's what a totally incompetent and splintered into many fragments the present government and Tory party is and of it's only interest being in a small portion of UK society.
For anyone who was in any doubt about that fact now you know!

Absolutely Plus One.

[reohn2]

Been down the pub, so I'm feeling argumentative.

Been waiting for yours and one or two other supporters of brexit argument throughout this thread but so far they aren't forthcoming

True, we don't care

.
Therein lies the problem.

Does it actually matter?

It does to the many people who'll suffer as a result,it doesn't matter to you because you won't.
I've never had you for an arrogant man Mick so I'll put it down to the Speckled Hen.

[Bonefishblues]

If the whole of the brexit debacle has shown up anything at all from the ordinary wo/man on the street(or Clapham Omnibus if you prefer) it's what a totally incompetent and splintered into many fragments the present government and Tory party is and of it's only interest being in a small portion of UK society.
For anyone who was in any doubt about that fact before now you know!

Not sure I couldn't label any/all Parties thus.

[Mick F]

It does to the many people who'll suffer as a result,it doesn't matter to you because you won't.
I've never had you for an arrogant man Mick so I'll put it down to the Speckled Hen.

One: It was Dartmoor Legend.
Two: There's a report on me from back in the mid 1970s in the RN saying I was arrogant.

..............he possesses the intelligence and ability to overcome his present shortcomings. He must however guard against a slight tendency to be arrogant. With more experience he should develop into a very satisfactory Senior Rate

Arrogant? Me? Never!