** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I've repeatedly posted on this thread that if I could be persuaded by good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country,then I'd change my mind about remaining in the EU.
However the more time goes on the more such a move for the country becomes clear to be a disasterous course which will in the short to medium term cost the country dearly in jobs and wealth,the long term is a complete unknown for anyone and no one can foresee it.

Why is it brexit supporters can't see that,why can't they formulate a compelling argument for leave without resorting to jingoism and untruths?
Why do they continually bang on about sovereignty when the UK already has sovereignty?
Why do think the WTO will welcome the UK with open arms when we've been blocked from joining before we start negotiations?
Why do they think we are better off on our own as a nation?
Why do they think the UK is still a world force?

That's fine and you get your vote, which I assume that you bothered to use.
Everybody else gets their vote to equally use just as they want.
If you dont like the way that they voted, it isnt really their problem and they dont have to justify it to you, on your terms for your approval.


So you think there's no room for persuasion? It's apparent that we have a divided nation over this issue and that's not a good thing. Don't you think it might be beneficial if the leave side were to present, as R2 says,' good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country' to try and heal the division?
To say that more people want something than don't isn't, on it's own, a valid argument for it's acceptance by all.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

reohn2 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Threw as a campaign of disinformation and lies the the Russians could not have improved upon. If voters used that then they were misled.

It is MISinformation, not information.

And they went along with it because it was what their itching ears wanted to hear!

The wise ones amongst them changed their minds when it was proven to be what it was,a stitch up.


The information that he wrote that in response to was telling us to vote remain.
I think that this part of your reply is spot on the mark.
And they went along with it because it was what their itching ears wanted to hear!

For most of , regardless of which way they vote.
Yma o Hyd
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I've repeatedly posted on this thread that if I could be persuaded by good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country,then I'd change my mind about remaining in the EU.
However the more time goes on the more such a move for the country becomes clear to be a disasterous course which will in the short to medium term cost the country dearly in jobs and wealth,the long term is a complete unknown for anyone and no one can foresee it.

Why is it brexit supporters can't see that,why can't they formulate a compelling argument for leave without resorting to jingoism and untruths?
Why do they continually bang on about sovereignty when the UK already has sovereignty?
Why do think the WTO will welcome the UK with open arms when we've been blocked from joining before we start negotiations?
Why do they think we are better off on our own as a nation?
Why do they think the UK is still a world force?

That's fine and you get your vote, which I assume that you bothered to use.
Everybody else gets their vote to equally use just as they want.
If you dont like the way that they voted, it isnt really their problem and they dont have to justify it to you, on your terms for your approval.


So you think there's no room for persuasion? It's apparent that we have a divided nation over this issue and that's not a good thing. Don't you think it might be beneficial if the leave side were to present, as R2 says,' good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country' to try and heal the division?
To say that more people want something than don't isn't, on it's own, a valid argument for it's acceptance by all.

Yes some persuasion is pretty much what I am calling for in my posts, the whole reason I am bothering sticking my head over the parapet.
I am looking for persuasion but I see none.
There is a difference between winning an argument through persuasion and battering the other side into silence.
Yma o Hyd
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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Cunobelin »

meic wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Threw as a campaign of disinformation and lies the the Russians could not have improved upon. If voters used that then they were misled.

It is MISinformation, not information.

And they went along with it because it was what their itching ears wanted to hear!

The wise ones amongst them changed their minds when it was proven to be what it was,a stitch up.


The information that he wrote that in response to was telling us to vote remain.
I think that this part of your reply is spot on the mark.
And they went along with it because it was what their itching ears wanted to hear!

For most of , regardless of which way they vote.



I remember the interview with the person who was disappointed that nothing had been done about immigration, and that there were still EU workers employed in the UK...... the day after the Referendum!

However amongst many others that was his understanding from the Campaigns
reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

meic wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Threw as a campaign of disinformation and lies the the Russians could not have improved upon. If voters used that then they were misled.

It is MISinformation, not information.

And they went along with it because it was what their itching ears wanted to hear!

The wise ones amongst them changed their minds when it was proven to be what it was,a stitch up.


The information that he wrote that in response to was telling us to vote remain.
I think that this part of your reply is spot on the mark.
And they went along with it because it was what their itching ears wanted to hear!

For most of , regardless of which way they vote.

I beg to differ.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:
pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:That's fine and you get your vote, which I assume that you bothered to use.
Everybody else gets their vote to equally use just as they want.
If you dont like the way that they voted, it isnt really their problem and they dont have to justify it to you, on your terms for your approval.


So you think there's no room for persuasion? It's apparent that we have a divided nation over this issue and that's not a good thing. Don't you think it might be beneficial if the leave side were to present, as R2 says,' good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country' to try and heal the division?
To say that more people want something than don't isn't, on it's own, a valid argument for it's acceptance by all.

Yes some persuasion is pretty much what I am calling for in my posts, the whole reason I am bothering sticking my head over the parapet.
I am looking for persuasion but I see none.
There is a difference between winning an argument through persuasion and battering the other side into silence.


Then persuade us it's a good thing rather than implying we should just accept it because more people wanted it in June 2016 than didn't.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:
pete75 wrote:
So you think there's no room for persuasion? It's apparent that we have a divided nation over this issue and that's not a good thing. Don't you think it might be beneficial if the leave side were to present, as R2 says,' good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country' to try and heal the division?
To say that more people want something than don't isn't, on it's own, a valid argument for it's acceptance by all.

Yes some persuasion is pretty much what I am calling for in my posts, the whole reason I am bothering sticking my head over the parapet.
I am looking for persuasion but I see none.
There is a difference between winning an argument through persuasion and battering the other side into silence.


Then persuade us it's a good thing rather than implying we should just accept it because more people wanted it in June 2016 than didn't.

Now that would be a really futile endeavour for me to undertake because you clearly do not read what I post!
Yma o Hyd
reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by reohn2 »

Cunobelin wrote:I remember the interview with the person who was disappointed that nothing had been done about immigration, and that there were still EU workers employed in the UK...... the day after the Referendum!

However amongst many others that was his understanding from the Campaigns


And I suspect that brexit voter wasn't alone in his/her feelings toward johnnie foreigner by little englanders unwilling to see a bigger picture of Europe or the world :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

meic wrote:
pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:That's fine and you get your vote, which I assume that you bothered to use.
Everybody else gets their vote to equally use just as they want.
If you dont like the way that they voted, it isnt really their problem and they dont have to justify it to you, on your terms for your approval.


So you think there's no room for persuasion? It's apparent that we have a divided nation over this issue and that's not a good thing. Don't you think it might be beneficial if the leave side were to present, as R2 says,' good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country' to try and heal the division?
To say that more people want something than don't isn't, on it's own, a valid argument for it's acceptance by all.

Yes some persuasion is pretty much what I am calling for in my posts, the whole reason I am bothering sticking my head over the parapet.
I am looking for persuasion but I see none.
There is a difference between winning an argument through persuasion and battering the other side into silence.


I don't accept that either.
A lot of well argued, knowledgable, polite persuasive stuff has been posted on the thread.

Because "remainers" now seem to form a majority on here, does that mean their persuasive arguments have in some small way borne fruit?

A few notable hardline "leavers" have not put their case for many many pages.
Or is it that that case has been shown to be full of gaping holes?
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Cugel »

meic wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I've repeatedly posted on this thread that if I could be persuaded by good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country,then I'd change my mind about remaining in the EU.
However the more time goes on the more such a move for the country becomes clear to be a disasterous course which will in the short to medium term cost the country dearly in jobs and wealth,the long term is a complete unknown for anyone and no one can foresee it.

Why is it brexit supporters can't see that,why can't they formulate a compelling argument for leave without resorting to jingoism and untruths?
Why do they continually bang on about sovereignty when the UK already has sovereignty?
Why do think the WTO will welcome the UK with open arms when we've been blocked from joining before we start negotiations?
Why do they think we are better off on our own as a nation?
Why do they think the UK is still a world force?

That's fine and you get your vote, which I assume that you bothered to use.
Everybody else gets their vote to equally use just as they want.
If you dont like the way that they voted, it isnt really their problem and they dont have to justify it to you, on your terms for your approval.


Here, in your answer, is the essence of one major factor that casts many of the leave voters in a poor light. They have no cogent reasons for voting as they did, evidenced by their unwillingness and inability to express any. Instead, as you have done, there's resort to "I'm entitled to my opinion". The unsaid part is, "..although I've no ability to explain it other than as an emotional itch".

Of course, you are entitled to your apparently bald opinion. But to simply have it, with no reason other than perhaps some dark ones you may not wish to admit to, you're emblematic of that irresponsible ultra-individualistic attitude that's the bane of many modern First World countries. You feel no responsibility to others, either to consider their wishes, interests or even viewpoints; nor to explain yours to them. You are like Mrs Thatcher with her, "There is no such thing as society". There's only you and what you want. A political choice is just another consumer choice, not the considered act of a responsible citizen about how best to maintain and improve the nation that succours him.

What you voted to do when you voted to leave the EU is to effectively wreak a revolution on the UK. Revolutions have enormous and often detrimental effects, short term and long term. They may or may not result in a betterment 25 or 50 years down the line. Often they're the death knell for a nation, which sinks into obscurity or even oblivion. Often there's a long period of war, degradation, economic chaos and great loss of life before things get back on an even keel. In all cases, the price on everyone is generally very, very high.

You may find this melodramatic. But consider the history of Britain and it's European neighbours over the last 1000 years. Consider most of all the history of the first half of the C20th, one singular disaster in which we have just this morning remembered. Fragmenting Europe once more, in a world with Trumps, Putins and their ilk, looks like a bad step back to those old norms.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

You are of course quite wrong in that post Cugel because, even though the information is there in front of you, repeatedly, you prefer to listen to incorrect sources, which suit and reinforce your world view.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

PDQ Mobile wrote:
meic wrote:
pete75 wrote:
So you think there's no room for persuasion? It's apparent that we have a divided nation over this issue and that's not a good thing. Don't you think it might be beneficial if the leave side were to present, as R2 says,' good argument and facts that brexit is a good and positive course of action for the country' to try and heal the division?
To say that more people want something than don't isn't, on it's own, a valid argument for it's acceptance by all.

Yes some persuasion is pretty much what I am calling for in my posts, the whole reason I am bothering sticking my head over the parapet.
I am looking for persuasion but I see none.
There is a difference between winning an argument through persuasion and battering the other side into silence.


I don't accept that either.
A lot of well argued, knowledgable, polite persuasive stuff has been posted on the thread.

Because "remainers" now seem to form a majority on here, does that mean their persuasive arguments have in some small way borne fruit?

A few notable hardline "leavers" have not put their case for many many pages.
Or is it that that case has been shown to be full of gaping holes?


I think they have merely been battered into silence.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

The point which Cugel and Pete75 are making for me is that they are approaching this in an adversarial manner they are here to fight a battle, not to reach consensus and understanding.
When they read a post they read it through a totally partisan filter (as did Cunobelin), any Leave voter who comes on this thread is NOT going to have their arguments actually read to see what they are saying but merely to find away to attack the Leave decision.

Edit: an unbelievable spelling mistake :oops:
Last edited by meic on 11 Nov 2018, 2:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:
pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:Yes some persuasion is pretty much what I am calling for in my posts, the whole reason I am bothering sticking my head over the parapet.
I am looking for persuasion but I see none.
There is a difference between winning an argument through persuasion and battering the other side into silence.


Then persuade us it's a good thing rather than implying we should just accept it because more people wanted it in June 2016 than didn't.

Now that would be a really futile endeavour for me to undertake because you clearly do not read what I post!


Ok where have you posted these persuasive arguments to convince us Brexit will be a good thing?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by meic »

You mean you want me to repeat what I have said previously but you didnt bother to read.
Your very question is based on you not having read what I have written in the past.
Ask for something which makes sense instead.
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