** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Cyril Haearn]

..
Cameron has a lot to answer for, why ask a black and white question about a rainbow problem. The consequent chaos was inevitable. The leave vote was made up of hard left, hard right and everything in between, united in a dislike of the EU and/or Cameron. The vote was against these institutions not only for Brexit. This is where politicians arguing they have to give people what they voted for are misled.

'A rainbow problem' +1

A bit like the Hallstein doctrine: the enemy of my enemy is my friend

Voting is just like real life, I choose to deal with people I like, who have similar opinions

[kwackers]

So what's the solution? A return property qualification perhaps? Educational? I grew up in a council house so I guess I'm one of your plebs - does that make my vote any less valuable than yours?

I've no idea what the solution is - do you?
I'm simply pointing out that expecting folks to have a say on something they know next to nothing about and aren't prepared to figure out isn't ideal - do you think it is?

Not sure why you think growing up in a council house has any affect on your vote. If it helps so did I, on a council estate that I think Shameless was modelled on.

But in terms of value. Then yes, if I knew more about something than you then I'd expect my say to be worth more than yours. Conversely if you knew more about a subject than me then your say should carry more weight.

As I've pointed out on this thread many times, I haven't got a clue about the EU. I did however, listen, read and watch folk who genuinely did know and in the end decided that me being asked was pointless but since almost to a man/woman they thought leaving was stupid and pointed out how nonsensical the leave arguments were I decided I'd go with them.

The reality of it is I vote for politicians with the expectation that they'll work towards the greater good, employing the necessary experts and taking their council. I don't vote for them to play stupid political games with our country as a side bet.

[Paulatic]

We don’t need a government to lead Brexit. The Secretary of State for Stockpiling suggests Googling any problems. How ignorant are these Tories? Does he know what a half life is, does he know where France is even?
https://twitter.com/pilaraymara/status/ ... 62530?s=20

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

........
I make no excuses I voted for what I wanted, is that worth less than any other vote...no, who says it is.

We all have a right to vote our way, I respect your vote even if I might not agree with you reasoning.

Any vote that's merely "what I wanted" with no reason, thought, logic or anything else explaining the wanting, but instead merely "a feeling" is worth less than a vote that's considered, reasoned for, explicable in terms of advantages/disadvantages and so forth. Voting from "a feeling" is an immature response unworthy of anyone claiming to be a citizen.

Is it?
Who are you to say that someone who you have never met (not necessarily me just another person) vote is worth less than the one who says they are informed.

So you are informed and trust the accuracy of that information.

So I am less informed and my vote is void!

Well I suppose that all youse lot still believe that the leavers are all thick.

BUT we won.

Just off for me Saturday curry

P.S. You are a master at words and phrases but no mind reader on the rest of the electorate.

[pete75]

So what's the solution? A return property qualification perhaps? Educational? I grew up in a council house so I guess I'm one of your plebs - does that make my vote any less valuable than yours?

I've no idea what the solution is - do you?
I'm simply pointing out that expecting folks to have a say on something they know next to nothing about and aren't prepared to figure out isn't ideal - do you think it is?

Not sure why you think growing up in a council house has any affect on your vote. If it helps so did I, on a council estate that I think Shameless was modelled on.

It's what make someone a pleb - plebeian - a common person. In the post I was replying to you were being a bit disparaging of plebs.

Yes there is a solution and representative democracy is meant to be that solution.

But in terms of value. Then yes, if I knew more about something than you then I'd expect my say to be worth more than yours. Conversely if you knew more about a subject than me then your say should carry more weight.

Much about politics is a matter of opinion or belief not knowledge. Take these two statements. Some say it's unfair that there is so much inequality in our society and those with lots of money should pay more tax to help those with less. Some say it's unfair that those with much money should pay more to the government to get the same services from the state as those who pay little or nothing. A case could be made for either of those views on fairness. Which version you prefer comes down to opinion and feelings.

[horizon]

With respect to supporters of brexit on here, the reasons for leaving are irrational. No matter what you show in damage to the country they'd still leave at any cost.

I don't think they are irrational and I don't think there's anything wrong with that if they are. Here are six good reasons for Brexit:

1. Brexit reinforces my identity of being British. British means being strong in the face of adversity, standing alone but resolute, courageous and independent of mind. Being British I can claim those attributes for myself.
2. Brexit makes me a bigger fish in a smaller pond. I can claim a unique right to our heritage, our country and our resources through my language, cultural identity and race. Other people of different race and culture cannot do this and to allow them to reduces what I have, my rights and privileges.
3. Brexit frees me from restrictions whether that be how I employ people, how I treat the environment, how I produce goods, what I choose to import and from where.
4. Brexit allows me to claim a share in a glorious history of world domination - we've done it once, we can do it again. And I don't trust foreigners.
5. My money is mine, my family's money is ours, mine is mine. They (the EU) are spending what is mine. What I have, you don't and what you have I don't have. Other people (the EU) are devious and are trying to rob us - I know because I would do the same.
6. Strength, independence and ownership trump care, compassion and sharing. And I tell other people what to do, they don't tell me. That's what sovereignty means.

If you feel any of the above, then Brexit makes complete sense. Calling people irrational means that the arguments against Brexit will fail to change minds.

[Oldjohnw]

6. Strength, independence and ownership trump care, compassion and sharing. And I tell other people what to do, they don't tell me. That's what sovereignty means.

He had to feature somewhere...

[Cugel]

Hi,

........
I make no excuses I voted for what I wanted, is that worth less than any other vote...no, who says it is.

We all have a right to vote our way, I respect your vote even if I might not agree with you reasoning.

Any vote that's merely "what I wanted" with no reason, thought, logic or anything else explaining the wanting, but instead merely "a feeling" is worth less than a vote that's considered, reasoned for, explicable in terms of advantages/disadvantages and so forth. Voting from "a feeling" is an immature response unworthy of anyone claiming to be a citizen.

Is it?
Who are you to say that someone who you have never met (not necessarily me just another person) vote is worth less than the one who says they are informed.

So you are informed and trust the accuracy of that information.

So I am less informed and my vote is void!

Well I suppose that all youse lot still believe that the leavers are all thick.

BUT we won.

Just off for me Saturday curry

P.S. You are a master at words and phrases but no mind reader on the rest of the electorate.

Once more you ignore your duties as a citizen.

If you pay attention only to your own feelings then you are anarchic, solitary, an egotist of the Ayn Rand variety. Like Thatcher you recognise "no society" but only "what I want". As such, you effectively and voluntarily remove yourself from citizenship. As such, you don't deserve a vote on a matter that greatly affects the nation and all it's citizens.

But this is why we have representative democracy rather than the mob-rule variety.

If you were to offer reasons, an argument or some form of cogent motive for believing that the UK would be better off outside of the EU, I would accept your right to vote as you would be acting as a citizen, even if your views on what was best for the UK differed from mine. But that's not what you and those with your attitude have done. You just voted on "a feeling". I suspect that this "feeling" is nothing more than an inchoate xenophobia or other prejudice that you may or may not even realise you have. You seem to have nothing that normally passes for a reason, despite being asked for one many times.

To arrange a future based on your "feeling" rather than any attempt to consider the consequences of your action, good or bad, is not the act of a citizen but of a person not mature enough to be considered adult and so not deserving of a vote. It is no virtue to act the infant in a situation requiring consideration and care about a matter that will have major effects on future generations and everyone living in our country.

But perhaps I'm completely wrong and you have some reasons for voting to leave? If so, I'd be very pleased to read them. Who knows, you might persuade me and others that you're right.

Cugel

[Cugel]

........
I make no excuses I voted for what I wanted, is that worth less than any other vote...no, who says it is.

We all have a right to vote our way, I respect your vote even if I might not agree with you reasoning.

Any vote that's merely "what I wanted" with no reason, thought, logic or anything else explaining the wanting, but instead merely "a feeling" is worth less than a vote that's considered, reasoned for, explicable in terms of advantages/disadvantages and so forth. Voting from "a feeling" is an immature response unworthy of anyone claiming to be a citizen.

You do have a right to vote. It comes with an associate duty to do so as a responsible citizen, not someone acting as though they were merely shopping for a new frock that they "feel" is nicer than the one they have. But many today have no concept of duty, even though their rights are provided only by others doing their duty to support and enable those rights.

As a voting citizen you have a duty to balance your own wants with those of others; your own interests with those of others. But most Leavers I come across don't even know what they really want, at least in terms enabling them to explain it. They just have "a feeling". When prised open, such "feelings" are often of a rather unpleasant kind.

If that's not the case with you, please explain why you "feel" as you do about British membership of the EU. Introspection is a good habit to acquire, after all.

Cugel

Oh what a pompous post.
Natural Ankling can vote how he likes for whatever reason he chooses. His vote and everyone else's vote has exactly the same value as yours and that value is 1.

He hasn't mentioned "whatever reason he chose" only that he voted according to his "feelings".

Do you feel it pompous that we effectively are being subjected to rule of the mob; that Parliament has acceded to this mob; and that I with many others feel aggrieved that so many people today act in such an infantile way about such a important matter? Is it alright with you for people to arrange vast and consequential acts based on nothing more than their "feelings"?

Perhaps so. After all, this attitude is all the rage these days and everyone should be able to do exactly as he pleases at all times, eh? None of us have any responsibility to anyone else but only to what we fancy just now, however whimsical.....?

Cugel

[661-Pete]

Well I suppose that all youse lot still believe that the leavers are all thick.

BUT we won.

"Thick" people do sometimes win.

I play a lot of bridge, and sometimes my partner and I do get taken to the cleaners by opponents who, I know for a fact, rank lower than us. These things happen. I don't call such people 'thick' - at least not openly.... (I'd soon get slung out of the club if I did)

And this is 'crowing' over your side's supposed 'win'. I don't like that. We've had too much of this "you lost, get over it" trope. On an issue as important as what we're up against, that's not good enough. Fly off to Neverland with Peter Pan (who did a lot of crowing), if you must...

Just off for me Saturday curry

Enjoy! We make our own. There's pomposity for you! I might as well join the club...

[pete75]

Any vote that's merely "what I wanted" with no reason, thought, logic or anything else explaining the wanting, but instead merely "a feeling" is worth less than a vote that's considered, reasoned for, explicable in terms of advantages/disadvantages and so forth. Voting from "a feeling" is an immature response unworthy of anyone claiming to be a citizen.

You do have a right to vote. It comes with an associate duty to do so as a responsible citizen, not someone acting as though they were merely shopping for a new frock that they "feel" is nicer than the one they have. But many today have no concept of duty, even though their rights are provided only by others doing their duty to support and enable those rights.

As a voting citizen you have a duty to balance your own wants with those of others; your own interests with those of others. But most Leavers I come across don't even know what they really want, at least in terms enabling them to explain it. They just have "a feeling". When prised open, such "feelings" are often of a rather unpleasant kind.

If that's not the case with you, please explain why you "feel" as you do about British membership of the EU. Introspection is a good habit to acquire, after all.

Cugel

Oh what a pompous post.
Natural Ankling can vote how he likes for whatever reason he chooses. His vote and everyone else's vote has exactly the same value as yours and that value is 1.

He hasn't mentioned "whatever reason he chose" only that he voted according to his "feelings".

Do you feel it pompous that we effectively are being subjected to rule of the mob; that Parliament has acceded to this mob; and that I with many others feel aggrieved that so many people today act in such an infantile way about such a important matter? Is it alright with you for people to arrange vast and consequential acts based on nothing more than their "feelings"?

Perhaps so. After all, this attitude is all the rage these days and everyone should be able to do exactly as he pleases at all times, eh? None of us have any responsibility to anyone else but only to what we fancy just now, however whimsical.....?

Cugel

How peopel feel about something can be the result of long and careful thought. The word has many meanings.

I dislike your patronising I know best attitude and your elitist crap about rule of the mob . Exactly the same argument was used throughout the nineteenth century by opponents of the various parliamentary reform acts which extended the franchise to poorer sections of society. Who do you regard as the mob though - people who vote differently to you perhaps?

I'm a firm remainer but your posts here are the first things I've read that give me some sympathy for leave voters and an understanding of why many voted that way. They saw and heard supercilious remainers like yourself calling them a mob, infantile, stupid etc and fought back in the only way they could - by voting against your wishes.
If there's a second referendum you'd be best keeping quiet. It's views like yours that will cause last time leave voters wavering towards remain to stick to their guns and vote leave again.

[661-Pete]

Any vote that's merely "what I wanted" with no reason, thought, logic or anything else explaining the wanting, but instead merely "a feeling" is worth less than a vote that's considered, reasoned for, explicable in terms of advantages/disadvantages and so forth. Voting from "a feeling" is an immature response unworthy of anyone claiming to be a citizen.

Not surprisingly, this statement is bound to attract a lot of opprobrium. I can see what you're driving at, and I find myself tending to agree with this view - but it's not going to win any friends!

Have you read The Rise of the Meritocracy, by Michael Young, by any chance? Worth a read if you haven't. I just read it a few weeks ago. For those who don't know, it's a satirical work first published in 1958, portraying a futuristic, dystopian society in which the ruling classes are selected purely on intelligence. Comprehensive education having been abandoned, children are selectively schooled and the selection process continues throughout adulthood. The author describes how it all goes pear-shaped in the end.

Not an easy read for me, sociology not being my subject, but I persevered. I found it disturbing.

Nothing is said in the book about selectively assigning voting rights, or giving them selective weighting, according to the voter's measure of intelligence. But that's a logical follow-on. It sort of makes sense - in a way - but there'd be riots.... The Suffragettes all over again...

Some people will probably tell me I'm spouting nonsense. Or maybe that I'm patronising (just seen Pete75's latest). Am I? Is Cugel?

[pete75]

Nothing is said in the book about selectively assigning voting rights, or giving them selective weighting, according to the voter's measure of intelligence. But that's a logical follow-on. It sort of makes sense - in a way - but there'd be riots.... The Suffragettes all over again...

Some people will probably tell me I'm spouting nonsense. Or maybe that I'm patronising (just seen Pete75's latest). Am I? Is Cugel?

Anything to prove that more intelligent people have better judgement, more compassion empathy etc than those regarded as less intelligent?
Enoch Powell was an extremely intelligent man as was Sir Keith Joseph - remember him,the so called "Mad Monk".

If voting or the value of one's vote was to be measured by some sort of test then the better off in society would have their children well trained and schooled in those tests enabling them to have even more influence and control over society and the political system than they have now.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Buuuurrpppp

Oh well I said we won so I don't put my foot in it and throw mud.

I am off to bed.

[reohn2]

NA
Still a deafening silence by way of any kind of reasonable explanation for your leave vote......