** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[[XAP]Bob]

seems to me the backstop deal is really an interference in UK sovereignty. I am surprised it has taken 2 years to realise this? why on earth she agreed to it i dont know.

Because some of us remember before the Good Friday agreement?

[roubaixtuesday]

seems to me the backstop deal is really an interference in UK sovereignty. I am surprised it has taken 2 years to realise this? why on earth she agreed to it i dont know.

The backstop is no more interference in UK sovereignty than any other international agreement.

Describing it as such is empty rhetoric.

[mr bajokoses]

It's beyond incredible that the EU is far more concerned than the UK about preserving peace on the island of Ireland.

It's really time we called out all these 'no deal' leavers for the warmongers they are.

If you are calling for no deal and think it is abusive to describe you as a warmonger, please feel free to put forward how you would control your external border - which is a condition of trading under WTO rules as seems to be the fallback of those calling for no deal - without breaking the Good Friday Agreement.

[mjr]

This for example from djnotts " Letting monkeys vote never a good idea." quoted in the post of mine that you're responding to.

Ah, you've interpreted that much differently to me. I thought it was a general comment on the ways that people voting tends to cause some problems... after all, we're all as much monkeys as each other.

[...] gets results. Ie total reversal on the fuel tax. [...] The energy companies and the getting rid of Macron are the big targets for the GJ. Most political commentary is agreed that Macron cannot last one more weekend of all out dissent. Almost every single car in our car park (2000+ cars) sports a gilet on the dash, as a sign of total solidarity. I hope this movement spreads across Europe.

Why? Do we want more fuel to be burned and elected leaders to be deposed? That's what I don't get about the GJ. As far as it's being reported, their headline demands seem awful and it seems a bit like they are FN stooges.

Maybe I should consider adding 're-moaner' to my user name
But I am not so sure now, b****t could force the UK to adopt a greener economy with much less use of resources (no new cars )

An 'ill wind' might be good in the end

Why post this? Do you think we haven't had enough rainbow-farting unicorns promised if we leave? Neither the ERG nor the Lexit lot want to see a greener economy and, as the replies point out, the best way to go green is in a coordinated action with other countries so that we don't go green and get kicked to the kerb in a race to the bottom as a bad-neighbour pollution-happy country persuades our polluting industries to go there.

That's a big reason why the Green Parties are generally FBPE - Full Blooded Pro European.

It's beyond incredible that the EU is far more concerned than the UK about preserving peace on the island of Ireland.

Why's it incredible? There's 4.8m continuing EU citizens on that island and only 1.8m departing UK ones, plus the Republic is a whole member state (and so a whole member state's EU Council vote/veto) while the North is a minority part of the UK.

[pete75]

Sorry but if I could put all leave voters on another island and let them alone leave I would whilst the rest remain in the EU I would. My vitriol comes from shaky job prospects due to the success story of UK automotive sector getting hit by issues over importing parts and components. The UK auto components sector is so integrated into the EU supply chain that leave is hurting already. No new projects, old projects reaching the end of their life cycle = downturn and job losses. Our only hope is aftermarket so keep your cars going everyone and don't buy new until the Brexit effect has gone. Of course being a bike forum that plea will not help much.

I doubt Brexit will have any effect on the UK automotive sector. Morgan cars will continue to sell in the relatively small number they always have.

The international automotive sector which builds some cars here will be affected a little bit by a sales fall in this country and the cost of relocating factories elsewhere but if it's to lower wage countries like SLovakia they'll soon recover the costs.

It is the component manufacturers that's the issue. The UK has been doing very well supplying into cars made over here and around Europe even the world. We supply most of our product into Europe. There's a lot of other companies doing the same. Easy to replace from Europe unless we absorb the increased costs. That is what will happen. There's some low margin, high volume parts that simply cannot absorb potential costs but we can't stop supply. So they become loss leaders to make sure we keep the work we do make money on.

These projects get replaced with new ones when new models come out. However we're not seeing the nominations for these larger projects. It's serious not just a joke about Morgan cars. It's the components manufacturing that's the meat of it all.

I thought most of the major British component makers were long gone. Lucas, Girling, Dunlop , Rubery Owen etc have long departed this mortal coil.

Here a list of the top 100 vehicle component suppliers worldwide. There are three British companies all well down the list. Added together their sales are less than a third of Bosch alone. At a guess I'd say that most of the car component suppliers here are foreign owned and part of the international automotive industry. They'll be able to relocate as easily as the car makers they supply. These companies are mainly here because of the customs union and single market. If Britain leaves those then many of the companies will leave too. It's a leaver fantasy to think otherwise.

https://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA116090622.PDF

[mr bajokoses]

It's beyond incredible that the EU is far more concerned than the UK about preserving peace on the island of Ireland.

Why's it incredible? There's 4.8m continuing EU citizens on that island and only 1.8m departing UK ones, plus the Republic is a whole member state (and so a whole member state's EU Council vote/veto) while the North is a minority part of the UK.

I could have been clearer. My incredulity is at how careless the UK Government - and by association the leavers - are about this fragile peace process. I fully understand why the EU prioritises peace.

In fact I think many leavers probably fail to appreciate how many concessions the EU has made to the UK in its efforts to maintain peace in Ireland.

Anyone calling for the backstop to be abolished or time-limited is simply ignorant of these concerns, or doesn't care. As I said, they are warmongering.

[Vorpal]

It's beyond incredible that the EU is far more concerned than the UK about preserving peace on the island of Ireland.

It's really time we called out all these 'no deal' leavers for the warmongers they are.

If you are calling for no deal and think it is abusive to describe you as a warmonger, please feel free to put forward how you would control your external border - which is a condition of trading under WTO rules as seems to be the fallback of those calling for no deal - without breaking the Good Friday Agreement.

I'm no Brexiter, but I am not completely convinced by this argument. The WTO does not require a hard border. It only requires control over imports and exports. And there is furthermore no reason that the UK and the Republic of Ireland cannot have an amicable agreement regarding the border.

There is no hard border between Norway and Sweden, despite Sweden being an EU member and Norway not. There is a customs checkpoint on most roads that cross the border. On the main E road between Oslo and Gothenburg, I have seen it manned exacetly one time in dozens of trips over the border to Sweden. They were spot checking cars. Cross border shopping trips are common.

[mr bajokoses]

It's beyond incredible that the EU is far more concerned than the UK about preserving peace on the island of Ireland.

It's really time we called out all these 'no deal' leavers for the warmongers they are.

If you are calling for no deal and think it is abusive to describe you as a warmonger, please feel free to put forward how you would control your external border - which is a condition of trading under WTO rules as seems to be the fallback of those calling for no deal - without breaking the Good Friday Agreement.

I'm no Brexiter, but I am not completely convinced by this argument. The WTO does not require a hard border. It only requires control over imports and exports. And there is furthermore no reason that the UK and the Republic of Ireland cannot have an amicable agreement regarding the border.

There is no hard border between Norway and Sweden, despite Sweden being an EU member and Norway not. There is a customs checkpoint on most roads that cross the border. On the main E road between Oslo and Gothenburg, I have seen it manned exacetly one time in dozens of trips over the border to Sweden. They were spot checking cars. Cross border shopping trips are common.

Norway is however a member of EFTA. The EFTA nations have been pretty clear they do not want the UK joining and disrupting their association. One of the few things No Deal Leavers have been clear about is their wish to seek trade deals around the world. These trade deals will require divergence from EU single market standards, eg the often-cited US chlorinated chicken. To prevent such non-compliant goods entering the EU single market will require more than unmanned checkpoints and a few spot checks on cars.

[Hobbs1951]

I thought most of the major British component makers were long gone. Lucas, Girling, Dunlop , Rubery Owen etc have long departed this mortal coil.

Here a list of the top 100 vehicle component suppliers worldwide. There are three British companies all well down the list. Added together their sales are less than a third of Bosch alone. At a guess I'd say that most of the car component suppliers here are foreign owned and part of the international automotive industry. They'll be able to relocate as easily as the car makers they supply. These companies are mainly here because of the customs union and single market. If Britain leaves those then many of the companies will leave too. It's a leaver fantasy to think otherwise.

https://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA116090622.PDF

You thought ?

There are 2500 component suppliers in the UK automotive sector and 32 vehicle manufacturing sites in the UK. The average UK content in British built cars is 44%.

Rubery Owen is still in business.

John.

[RickH]

There is no hard border between Norway and Sweden, despite Sweden being an EU member and Norway not. There is a customs checkpoint on most roads that cross the border. On the main E road between Oslo and Gothenburg, I have seen it manned exacetly one time in dozens of trips over the border to Sweden. They were spot checking cars. Cross border shopping trips are common.

But then Norway isn't completely "outside" as an EFTA & Schengen Convention member...

[mercalia]

The now ancient Good Friday Agreement is casting a dark shadow over the whole issue? Rather an anachronism now, times have changed, the original Protestant attempt to disenfranchise the Catholics that led to a resurgent IRA now ancient history? The IRA are now old men or dead. Eire needs to give up its claim to North Ireland (leglly they have as part of the agreement but I wonder). Maybe time to move on from the Good Friday Agreement and put it into the history books, and stop it causing so much trouble now?

[mjr]

The now ancient Good Friday Agreement is casting a dark shadow over the whole issue? Rather an anachronism now, times have changed, the original Protestant attempt to disenfranchise the Catholics that led to a resurgent IRA now ancient history? The IRA are now old men or dead. Eire needs to give up its claim to North Ireland ( its a bit of a phoney country as only about 3% of the population actively use Gaelic any way?). Maybe time to move on from the Good Friday Agreement and put it into the history books, and stop it causing so much trouble now?

Cracking warmongering, Gromit!

Is 20 years now ancient? Wouldn't the Protestant majority try to steamroller the Catholic minority again? After all, we've a far smaller majority in the UK trying to steamroller a 48% minority...

Edit: and is the UK a phoney country with much less than 3% using its indigenous languages rather than the German/Norman import called English?

[roubaixtuesday]

The now ancient Good Friday Agreement is casting a dark shadow over the whole issue? Rather an anachronism now, times have changed, the original Protestant attempt to disenfranchise the Catholics that led to a resurgent IRA now ancient history? The IRA are now old men or dead. Eire needs to give up its claim to North Ireland ( its a bit of a phoney country as only about 3% of the population actively use Gaelic any way?). Maybe time to move on from the Good Friday Agreement and put it into the history books, and stop it causing so much trouble now?

The fundamental problem is thus.

Brexit demands controls at our borders.

The NI border, however, is open, and everyone wishes it to remain so.

So Brexit demands simultaneously tightening and not tightening borders. The DUP demand no difference between NI and the rest of the UK. These are flat out incompatible. Add the history of violent sectarianism, and you reach the current impasse.

The root cause: Brexit is a dumb idea, so riddled with self contradictions it's not implementable. As is now observable in all its florid glory.

[mr bajokoses]

The now ancient Good Friday Agreement is casting a dark shadow over the whole issue? Rather an anachronism now, times have changed, the original Protestant attempt to disenfranchise the Catholics that led to a resurgent IRA now ancient history? The IRA are now old men or dead. Eire needs to give up its claim to North Ireland (leglly they have as part of the agreement but I wonder). Maybe time to move on from the Good Friday Agreement and put it into the history books, and stop it causing so much trouble now?

You make it all sound so simple

[mjr]

There is no hard border between Norway and Sweden, despite Sweden being an EU member and Norway not. There is a customs checkpoint on most roads that cross the border. On the main E road between Oslo and Gothenburg, I have seen it manned exacetly one time in dozens of trips over the border to Sweden. They were spot checking cars. Cross border shopping trips are common.

That is still a hard border in the brexit sense because it has physical infrastructure. Not to be confused with a restricted or closed border.