** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3988
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 4 Jan 2019, 10:50am

The EU has been quite successful in achieving energy consumption demand, a report says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46741346

It has long been my firmly held belief that the EU was (especially in the last 20 years) more "green" than successive UK Govts would otherwise have been.

A small quote.
"Its author says EU product standards on light bulbs, fridges, vacuum cleaners and other appliances have played a substantial part in reducing energy demand."

.............

I do agree with some points raised on here that some shortcomings of EU policy should be addressed.
It was always my view that we should do this through negotiation at a common Brussels table.

Compromise is a great force for good.
We need compromise from the leave side now.
A recognition that much of what they so desire will be highly detrimental to the people of the UK.
A genuine recognition that many of the promises of the "leave" campaign were, at worst outright lies, and at best a distortion.

It is beyond me that anyone but the most ardent Europhobe can support a full hard Brexit now that the full extent of the pain and cost of it are before us.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 3405
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 4 Jan 2019, 11:38am

PDQ Mobile wrote:(snip)

A genuine recognition that many of the promises of the "leave" campaign were, at worst outright lies, and at best a distortion.

It is beyond me that anyone but the most ardent Europhobe can support a full hard Brexit now that the full extent of the pain and cost of it are before us.


There are many here among us (humans, not just CUK forum habitués) who feel that life is not, but ought to be, but a construct of their own strange desires and wishful thunks. This inclination often engenders another, which is to make wishful assumptions about both what cannot be seen (bogeys under the bed are imagined) and what is possible, with a hard and wishful-enough thunk (various sunlit uplands). Yet another inclination then pops into place - the notion that "I cannot be wrong, no matter what the evidence that seems to say I am".

I've found it impossible to discuss or reason with many humans on various matters because they are so desperate for something that isn't true to be true; and prepared to suffer enormous degrees of cognitive dissonance to remain believers in various attractive fables, thunks and outright lies. One signal that this dissonance is at a peak is the ease with which the sufferer comes to the boil and must vent the safety valve that takes pressure off their boiling belief. They will go red in the face, shout and take the huff - anything to avoid a discussion involving evidence, logic, reasoning and so forth.

Of course, we all suffer this way to some degree. We must adopt many beliefs based on faith, not trust, as we have no way ourselves to independently verify truth. Moreover, our tests-for-truth are themselves a set of beliefs which may or may not be good at apprehending the real (or, more importantly, predicting the near-future outcomes of operating our beliefs). But some truth tests are better than others; some evidence more resilient to such tests.

Ardent believers in [supply various ideological constructs] are not very interested in either evidence or truth tests. If pressed they will invent evidence and truth tests to suit their faith. 'Twas ever-thus with we humans - even now in the age of science.

Don't think you're immune to these syndromes! I know I'm not. No.

Cugel

merseymouth
Posts: 2120
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 4 Jan 2019, 11:48am

Hi, Cugel +1. MM

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 12435
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 4 Jan 2019, 11:50am

Hi,
+1
The long and the short of it down to a "T"

Say no more.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 16606
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 4 Jan 2019, 12:22pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:The EU has been quite successful in achieving energy consumption demand, a report says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46741346

It has long been my firmly held belief that the EU was (especially in the last 20 years) more "green" than successive UK Govts would otherwise have been.

I agree. One of the biggest barriers to local/regional/national action on global problems like this is a feeling that if you are among the first to behave better then you will be losing out to those who don't. That's not always true, because there are benefits in being one of the leaders in developing/producing new technology, but it's still a widespread fear.

The EU is a ready-made cooperation framework between many countries, with links to many others. It has succeeded more and more quickly on many environmental matters than most attempts to create ad-hoc international cooperation agreements like the Kyoto Protocol which took 8 years to come into effect. The same is true in many of its cooperation fields, such as maintaining the EU's single market while the "Doha round" of negotiations to update the global WTO agreements started 18 years ago and has no end in sight. We should keep working with our neighbours (and IMO remaining in the EU was clearly the best way for us to do that as one of the biggest members) and not keep deluding ourselves that new global trade deals will come as quickly as the likes of Fox, Davies and Farage claimed.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3988
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 4 Jan 2019, 12:40pm

Cugel wrote:
Ardent believers in [supply various ideological constructs] are not very interested in either evidence or truth tests. If pressed they will invent evidence and truth tests to suit their faith. 'Twas ever-thus with we humans - even now in the age of science.

Don't think you're immune to these syndromes! I know I'm not. No.

Cugel


And yet I am quite interested in truth,or an aspiration towards it, certainly preferable to a doctrine based upon deceit.
My life has been to some extent a quest after "truth" in it's many and varied forms.
Practice makes better, and I think I can smell rats at some considerable distance.

We often accept too readily what the media pushes at us as truth, but in truth, a good deal of the vast amount of information that is put before us serves only to obfusicate and blur.
Extremely close results in elections are proof of this, such a result is merely the tossing of a coin.
An extraordinary phenomena.
We are divided and ruled by such lack of clear adherence to, and blurring of, truth.

For myself it is a truth that the UK would be better off remaining in, or a close partner of, the EU.
This truth has been pretty thoughly tested on here, through 700 pages IMHO.
The fact that the leave campaign was based upon outright untruths, now exposed, lend good credence to that.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 12435
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 4 Jan 2019, 2:24pm

Hi,
I.M.O. mostly these pages are going in circles.

Who will predict the next result.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4202
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 4 Jan 2019, 2:36pm

Cugel wrote:Don't think you're immune to these syndromes! I know I'm not. No.

Of course none of us is immune. It doesn't follow, however, that all our views are just matters of opinion, and each of those opinions is as valid as the next. That's the way to madness.

Personally, I accept the validity of a wide range of opinions, even seemingly mad ones. All I ask is that they have some internal consistency - a condition that excludes the views of almost all public promoters of Brexit.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8720
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 4 Jan 2019, 3:23pm

Cugel wrote:
Don't think you're immune to these syndromes! I know I'm not. No.

Cugel

How dare you, you're a fool and an unutterable bounder and I shall have you flogged by my man. :P

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50689
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 4 Jan 2019, 3:31pm

Cugel wrote: ..................with many humans on various matters because they are so desperate for something that isn't true to be true; and prepared to suffer enormous degrees of cognitive dissonance to remain believers in various attractive fables, thunks and outright lies. One signal that this dissonance is at a peak is the ease with which the sufferer comes to the boil and must vent the safety valve that takes pressure off their boiling belief. They will go red in the face, shout and take the huff - anything to avoid a discussion involving evidence, logic, reasoning and so forth.
Has this thread got onto the Helmet Debate?
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50689
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 4 Jan 2019, 3:36pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Under the new rules, land them
Under the old rules chuck a load of dead and dying fish back, and repeat ad infinitum

True, but if you catch whiting instead of cod, you must land them without being able to carry on and catch cod as well.


So you're in favour of throwing dead fish back into the sea? Ad infinitum?
Until the hold is full of just Cod?
Who said I was in favour or anything? :shock:
I was just making a statement of fact.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 16606
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 4 Jan 2019, 3:38pm

Mick F wrote:
Cugel wrote: ..................with many humans on various matters because they are so desperate for something that isn't true to be true; and prepared to suffer enormous degrees of cognitive dissonance to remain believers in various attractive fables, thunks and outright lies. One signal that this dissonance is at a peak is the ease with which the sufferer comes to the boil and must vent the safety valve that takes pressure off their boiling belief. They will go red in the face, shout and take the huff - anything to avoid a discussion involving evidence, logic, reasoning and so forth.
Has this thread got onto the Helmet Debate?

There are distressingly many similarities... and I leave it to the reader to think about which side is ignoring the bulk of experts, cherry-picking from the evidence and listening to niche specialists!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9855
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 4 Jan 2019, 3:43pm

Aha. The Seaborne Freight conundrum has finally been cleared up. It transpires that they are a takeaway pizza company....

So no doubt we'll be seeing fleets of deep pan fried crusty pizzas with anchovy, quatro formaggio and peperoni topping, plying their way across the Channel bearing the entire load of Brex**itshire's imports and exports .... any time soon?

As the article says: what could possibly go wrong....?
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

mercalia
Posts: 14578
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 4 Jan 2019, 4:25pm

661-Pete wrote:Aha. The Seaborne Freight conundrum has finally been cleared up. It transpires that they are a takeaway pizza company....

So no doubt we'll be seeing fleets of deep pan fried crusty pizzas with anchovy, quatro formaggio and peperoni topping, plying their way across the Channel bearing the entire load of Brex**itshire's imports and exports .... any time soon?

As the article says: what could possibly go wrong....?


i feel sorry for the guy on his moped then :( he only has a small box on the back?

Eton Rifle
Posts: 47
Joined: 6 Mar 2017, 1:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Eton Rifle » 4 Jan 2019, 5:46pm

geocycle wrote:The prominence given to fishing is really a er red herring. Fishing is important and culturally significant but contributes just 0.5 % of GDP. The other 99.5% is also heading rapidly for the rocks.


It's actually less than that - 0.1%. We're talking 15k jobs on the boats and a few thousand more in the processing industry (many of them, ironically for Brexiters, held by foreign nationals). Fishing is simply irrelevant to a post-industrial economy like ours. On the other hand, we're gambling with financial services, that account for 13% of GDP -literally 130 times more important than fishing. Just another example of Brexiter economic illiteracy.