** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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RickH
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by RickH »

horizon wrote:
mjr wrote:https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh/ is reportedly a way to watch the numbers without helping stress/crash the parliament server. 2.86m at 10.50.


Great link but either people have stopped signing (unlikely) or the server is stuck there too.

I think the petitions site counter freezes at times when the site struggling to cope but hasn't completely crashed. They both showed the same numbers when I checked just now.

2,918,806 & counting!
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

horizon wrote:
mjr wrote:https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh/ is reportedly a way to watch the numbers without helping stress/crash the parliament server. 2.86m at 10.50.


Great link but either people have stopped signing (unlikely) or the server is stuck there too.

I think, in order to spare the .gov servers, they only refresh every half hour or so. A couple of days ago they were keeping a real time total.
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anniesboy
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by anniesboy »

I am reminded that my wife and I went on a cycling holiday in France on the day the referendum result was announced.
We were at our very first coffee stop, a man sitting close to us asked what we thought of the result .
He said never mind when the dust has settled and the final decision is reached, we can refer to your country as Little Britain as opposed to Great Britain.
pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pwa »

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
I guess it is if you can't face the truth.

Serves me right I suppose for sticking my head into this Echo Chamber.

Almost every online group discussing Brexit that I've seen recently has gone one of two ways:
• 70-80% Remain, with the 10% Leave advocates still participating accusing it of being an Echo Chamber while the 10% Undecided beg the Leave side to give any rational arguments (and sadly, some of the Remain attack the 10% Undecided for still wavering, which isn't great to see);
• 90% Leave, with some people flinging dung like the "Lisbon Treaty would force the UK to adopt the Euro and conscription into an EU army by 2020" and other lies from sites like "Brexit Briefings" into the group so fast that the few remaining Remain and even fact-checking Undecideds can't keep up with the <i>[inappropriate word removed]</i> storm.

This polarisation seems unhealthy, but I can't see how to overcome it while pro-Leave groups are dominated by a solid stream of fake news and Leavers won't engage in groups that don't tolerate such flooding.

I don't know how we get there, but while Leave and Remain supporters are just talking to themselves and not looking for compromises or solutions to the concerns of the other side, there will be no solution. There will just be short term victories / defeats. If we leave the EU in however many months, that will not be the end of it. If we have another vote and we vote to stay, that too will not be the end of it.
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by bovlomov »

I've been looking at
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.c ... 84&area=uk

Strange. My constituency appears not to have had a single new signature for over an hour, even though the national total has increased by over 200,000. Perhaps the local figures are being collated separately.
mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

mercalia wrote:You may remember that some time ago one of the architects of the GFA was pondering a legal challenge to the backstop that it went against the GFA. I have been wondering what that might be. A Guardian article i mentioned a few items back suggested what that might be viz that the GFA respected the integrity of the all parties did nothing to undermine the status quo but was all things to all people. Clearly the backstop in any form doesnt do that since it undermines the sovereignty the the UK one way or another. If this is true the EU can no longer give their reason for the backstop assupporting Ireland and the GFA rather than simply protecting their own dogmas?



I also wonder if any govt can agree to anything that disenfranchises some of its citizens in the way the back stop does apart from some thing like Scotland being given its independance? There must be a law of some kind? The GFA never envisaged that? The DUP are 100% right to refuse to go along with the backstop, the UK and EU govts are completely in the wrong: As the Guardian article said the only way that Nth Ireland could exerise any influence would be make a plea to Eire on their behalf in the EU - thats totally against the GFA
Last edited by mercalia on 22 Mar 2019, 11:53am, edited 1 time in total.
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mjr »

mercalia wrote:
mercalia wrote:[...] Clearly the backstop in any form doesnt do that since it undermines the sovereignty the the UK one way or another. If this is true the EU can no longer give their reason for the backstop assupporting Ireland and the GFA rather than simply protecting their own dogmas?



I also wonder if any govt can agree to anything that disenfranchises some of its citizens in the way the back stop does apart from some thing like Scotland being given its independance? There must be a law of some kind? The GFA never envisaged that? The DUP are 100% right to refuse to go along with the backstop, the UK and EU govts are completely in the wrong

I notice mercalia is now talking to mercalia. I don't follow the argument that seems to me to say the EU was lying about supporting Ireland and preserving the GFA, or that the UK government having agreed to the GFA free-willingly (is that a word in English? I'm pretty sure it is in German) undermined our sovereignty somehow. The UK is clearly sovereign and can restart the Northern Ireland civil war any time it chooses :(

Does anyone here understand mercalia's argument? Could you try to reexpress it for the rest of us?

Also, clearly a government can agree to something that disenfranchises some of its citizens because the Cameron government agreed to disenfranchise an estimated 1.5m of UK citizens in the referendum - which was only allowed because it was advisory. If it were binding (which I think it arguably has become, thanks to two incompetent PMs), that would be yet another reason to void the result.
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by horizon »

bovlomov wrote:
horizon wrote:
mjr wrote:https://brexit-petitions-count.now.sh/ is reportedly a way to watch the numbers without helping stress/crash the parliament server. 2.86m at 10.50.


Great link but either people have stopped signing (unlikely) or the server is stuck there too.

I think, in order to spare the .gov servers, they only refresh every half hour or so. A couple of days ago they were keeping a real time total.


I think you are right. It's updated now to 2,971,394 after about 45 mins so that looks like at least 1000 per minute so 3M shoud be reached before 1.00 pm.
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by horizon »

mercalia wrote:
I also wonder if any govt can agree to anything that disenfranchises some of its citizens in the way the back stop does apart from some thing like Scotland being given its independance? There must be a law of some kind? The GFA never envisaged that? The DUP are 100% right to refuse to go along with the backstop, the UK and EU govts are completely in the wrong


The DUP hasn't yet faced up to the fact that we are now in the 21st century. It has to come to terms with the fact that it has a border (that it helped create) with Ireland. The privileged relationship that the Protestants of NI had with GB is fading. The idea of six counties (not the 12 of Ulster) hanging on to the UK is fine except that it includes a large Catholic minority (about 800,000). That history and the independence of Ireland has to be faced. Membership of the EU blurred the distinction between NI and Ireland and helped the Peace Process. Brexit threatens that.

Ironically, the backstop gives Northern Ireland access AIUI to the single market - it is hugely privileged - and this is why the EU are as wary about the backstop as anyone. You can read more here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46255584

and you will also see why Scotland complained about NI's privileged backstop and how the DUP are letting down NI in opposing it.


The problem of Ireland isn't yet resolved.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by horizon »

horizon wrote: so 3M shoud be reached before 1.00 pm.


A bit earlier than expected but it's reached 3M.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by PDQ Mobile »

One last post!
Chris Davies MP guilty of fraud. BBC (Welsh news).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47667080
He is exactly the sort of honest Brexiter we all need!.(like a hole in the head).

How can anyone support this?
pwa?
"Echo chamber", hardly, just some fair balanced criticism.
Put your own argument forward. Why are we better off leaving?

Pokey hole for Mr Davies!! Methinks.
Unprogressive. Anti environmental. Anti human rights and personally totally selfish and corrupt.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/25282 ... hire/votes
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 22 Mar 2019, 12:21pm, edited 3 times in total.
mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by mercalia »

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:
mercalia wrote:[...] Clearly the backstop in any form doesnt do that since it undermines the sovereignty the the UK one way or another. If this is true the EU can no longer give their reason for the backstop assupporting Ireland and the GFA rather than simply protecting their own dogmas?



I also wonder if any govt can agree to anything that disenfranchises some of its citizens in the way the back stop does apart from some thing like Scotland being given its independance? There must be a law of some kind? The GFA never envisaged that? The DUP are 100% right to refuse to go along with the backstop, the UK and EU govts are completely in the wrong


I notice mercalia is now talking to mercalia. I don't follow the argument that seems to me to say the EU was lying about supporting Ireland and preserving the GFA, or that the UK government having agreed to the GFA free-willingly (is that a word in English? I'm pretty sure it is in German) undermined our sovereignty somehow. The UK is clearly sovereign and can restart the Northern Ireland civil war any time it chooses :(

Does anyone here understand mercalia's argument? Could you try to reexpress it for the rest of us?

Also, clearly a government can agree to something that disenfranchises some of its citizens because the Cameron government agreed to disenfranchise an estimated 1.5m of UK citizens in the referendum - which was only allowed because it was advisory. If it were binding (which I think it arguably has become, thanks to two incompetent PMs), that would be yet another reason to void the result.



The EU were lying or at best trying to maintain that the EUs and Eires interests are the same. But has become clear now that their real purpose is protecting their dogmas ( fine by the way - Mays was slow to pickup on this and still doesnt grasp this,so in pushing her agreement she is acting on the EU's behalf & denying her oath to protect the UK ) Govts can't do anything they want. I would have thought that disenfranchising a group would be contrary to their human rights at least? But I would have thought there must be something else in UK law that makes it illegal? I dont think the GFA undermined our sovereignty as it was all things to all men. But the backstop maybe does as it is very specific - certainly the original backstop that affected only nth ireland descriminated against them? And just making it affect every one in the UK not a way out? So not only are the UK at fault but also the EU and the agreement withthe backstop is invalid atleast under human rights laws? Just a thought. But it does put the DUP in a different light?
Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bonefishblues »

So we have:

1. Suck it up, hold yer nose and sign the deal.
Or
2. Go No Deal.
Or
3. er, well, you know, hmmm, tricky. Or, being more sensible:
Or
4. We don't want No Deal, that's Doomsday, but nor do we want your deal, so we'll see what we do want and come back to you soonest EU.
So
5a. We come back, all shiny with a new request. EU tells us to get stuffed.
Or
5b. We can't decide what we want, but we know we don't want 4. above, so cut us some slack, we will get back to you, and yes, we'll stay in and go thro' EU Elections and stuff. Which road leads, as night eventually follows day to:
Ta-da
6. Referendum the Second.

So, Soothsayers, any way close to your thoughts?
pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Serves me right I suppose for sticking my head into this Echo Chamber.

Almost every online group discussing Brexit that I've seen recently has gone one of two ways:
• 70-80% Remain, with the 10% Leave advocates still participating accusing it of being an Echo Chamber while the 10% Undecided beg the Leave side to give any rational arguments (and sadly, some of the Remain attack the 10% Undecided for still wavering, which isn't great to see);
• 90% Leave, with some people flinging dung like the "Lisbon Treaty would force the UK to adopt the Euro and conscription into an EU army by 2020" and other lies from sites like "Brexit Briefings" into the group so fast that the few remaining Remain and even fact-checking Undecideds can't keep up with the <i>[inappropriate word removed]</i> storm.

This polarisation seems unhealthy, but I can't see how to overcome it while pro-Leave groups are dominated by a solid stream of fake news and Leavers won't engage in groups that don't tolerate such flooding.

I don't know how we get there, but while Leave and Remain supporters are just talking to themselves and not looking for compromises or solutions to the concerns of the other side, there will be no solution. There will just be short term victories / defeats. If we leave the EU in however many months, that will not be the end of it. If we have another vote and we vote to stay, that too will not be the end of it.


A friend posts quite mild, truthful and well reasoned pro EU comments on a local web forum where the majority of posts are pro leave. He's had a few threats promising him physical assault including one to cut his throat. With reactions like that how is it possible to "engage" with such people?

Many pro remain MPs are still getting death threats. The local police have even advised Anna Soubry to keep away from her own home. One pro remain MP has been murdered by a keen leaver so these threats have to be taken seriously. Strange how these folks who claim democracy is on their side resort to threats of extreme violence towards people with different views. I feel there is little chance of compromise with many leavers.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Post by Bonefishblues »

Radio 4 at the moment will be reporting on MI5 & the level of threat that MPs are currently facing.
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