** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16943
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 4 Apr 2019, 10:27am

Is anyone able to explain how a new Brexit referendum 'would undermine our democracy'? Especially considering that May has put the same plan to parliament on 3 separate occasions?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 4 Apr 2019, 10:51am

Vorpal wrote:Is anyone able to explain how a new Brexit referendum 'would undermine our democracy'? Especially considering that May has put the same plan to parliament on 3 separate occasions?


It's a meaningless phrase, or perhaps one with so many meanings as to render it meaningless without qualification.

IMO, the first referendum undermined our model of democracy if only by illustrating how that model is incompatible with referendums. It's undermined our model of democracy by rendering it impotent. That may be a good thing depending on POV but nobody seems to have come up with a long-term plan to fix it.

So, I'll suggest that a further referendum - or several - would just highlight the mess exposed by the first.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10363
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 4 Apr 2019, 10:58am

Hi,
If the result of another referendum is to stay as people say it's based on what we know now.
What are you going to say about the result of the last referendum as it was based on what we knew then?

Your biggest problem will be Explain to us what the options on the ballot paper will actually be?
The only options will be black and white leave or stay otherwise we will become even more divided.

Based on what I've just said the results will simply be what people really want.
Stayers on here who are against anybody voting with their gut are putting reasons forward on a purely personal level what's the difference there then, there Isn't any is there.

Reasons put forward for either way Are purely reasons to bolster someone's personal views or opinions.
No one has the right to say who is right or wrong and comments like don't read can't read don't know fingers in ears eyes wide shut, Should be disregarded.

What is now a certainty is that we will leave whatever, MPs knew months ago That's to reverse their decision after agreeing a 50 would be to commit political suicide in the eyes of the public based on democracy and law of the land.

Not everybody is pleased but that's the way it is and that's where we are.

Ask 10 people tomorrow why they voted the way they did? Not which way they voted.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 1947
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 4 Apr 2019, 11:11am

Vorpal wrote:Is anyone able to explain how a new Brexit referendum 'would undermine our democracy'? Especially considering that May has put the same plan to parliament on 3 separate occasions?


No. It's opposed on three grounds:

(1) By supporters of brexit because it may well show that the nation has changed its mind.
(2) By Theresa May because it would further damage the Tory party, who would be faced with campaigning for her deal (which they hate) or voting remain (which they hate)
(3) By people who genuinely believe they have a duty to treat the first vote as binding regardless of circumstances.

Needless to say, (2) is what is dominating govt thinking.

kwackers
Posts: 13296
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 4 Apr 2019, 11:14am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Stayers on here who are against anybody voting with their gut are putting reasons forward on a purely personal level what's the difference there then, there Isn't any is there.

I'm struggling to understand that sentence.
Are you saying remainers are against people voting on their gut but are putting their own personal reasons forward for staying?

If so then I suggest reading back. There are pages and pages of genuine valid reasons that nobody has even tried to discuss/disprove etc.

The few leavers I know actually had real reasons, misguided imo but they could hold a discussion about them. The only folk I know who don't have any reasons that can be discussed only exist on here - and the odd shouty person on social media, you know the ones "you lost get over it!", "leave means LEAVE" etc etc.

mr bajokoses
Posts: 512
Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 5:19pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 4 Apr 2019, 11:32am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Is anyone able to explain how a new Brexit referendum 'would undermine our democracy'? Especially considering that May has put the same plan to parliament on 3 separate occasions?


No. It's opposed on three grounds:

(1) By supporters of brexit because it may well show that the nation has changed its mind.
(2) By Theresa May because it would further damage the Tory party, who would be faced with campaigning for her deal (which they hate) or voting remain (which they hate)
(3) By people who genuinely believe they have a duty to treat the first vote as binding regardless of circumstances.

Needless to say, (2) is what is dominating govt thinking.


I have been strongly opposed to another referendum for three reasons. First being the point eloquently put by thirdcrank above about its incompatibility with our representative parliamentary democracy. Secondly because I am not at all convinced that it would result in a clear mandate for any course of action. Thirdly because I don't think we can even agree what question would be asked on another referendum.

Needless to say, I am firmly in the Remain camp and signed the Revoke A50 petition, which means I received an email this morning with a transcript of the Westminster Hall debate on three petitions - mainly the Revoke A50 one, but also the 2nd referendum, and 'just get on with it' petitions.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-04-01/debates/DAEA92D0-DB85-4370-B65C-2BB2FF6B5AE9/LeavingTheEuropeanUnion

It was fascinating to see part way through this debate that those representing the government just walked out of the debate. Also, many of the speakers made their cases for a public vote very convincingly indeed and I found myself somewhat moved towards their thinking. Their strongest arguments addressed my second concern above, but not too much was said about the first and third.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 1947
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 4 Apr 2019, 11:40am

mr bajokoses wrote:I have been strongly opposed to another referendum for three reasons. First being the point eloquently put by thirdcrank above about its incompatibility with our representative parliamentary democracy. Secondly because I am not at all convinced that it would result in a clear mandate for any course of action. Thirdly because I don't think we can even agree what question would be asked on another referendum.

Needless to say, I am firmly in the Remain camp and signed the Revoke A50 petition, which means I received an email this morning with a transcript of the Westminster Hall debate on three petitions - mainly the Revoke A50 one, but also the 2nd referendum, and 'just get on with it' petitions.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-04-01/debates/DAEA92D0-DB85-4370-B65C-2BB2FF6B5AE9/LeavingTheEuropeanUnion

It was fascinating to see part way through this debate that those representing the government just walked out of the debate. Also, many of the speakers made their cases for a public vote very convincingly indeed and I found myself somewhat moved towards their thinking. Their strongest arguments addressed my second concern above, but not too much was said about the first and third.


I agree there are many good reasons to oppose a 2nd ref.

My view is that it is the least worst option. A straightforward revoke would (for me at least) be denying the legitimacy of the original vote, which I think should be respected, even though I personally don't think it should ever have been called.

The case for me is clear: We have tried to implement to vote, it's been a disaster, and the best solution we have seems to many people worse than remaining. Are you really sure you still want to leave with this this deal?

mr bajokoses
Posts: 512
Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 5:19pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 4 Apr 2019, 11:42am

PS to those who seem to think our whole parliament is broken and that all MPs are corrupt and not fit for purpose I would recommend reading the transcript linked in my previous post.

mr bajokoses
Posts: 512
Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 5:19pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 4 Apr 2019, 11:45am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
mr bajokoses wrote:I have been strongly opposed to another referendum for three reasons. First being the point eloquently put by thirdcrank above about its incompatibility with our representative parliamentary democracy. Secondly because I am not at all convinced that it would result in a clear mandate for any course of action. Thirdly because I don't think we can even agree what question would be asked on another referendum.

Needless to say, I am firmly in the Remain camp and signed the Revoke A50 petition, which means I received an email this morning with a transcript of the Westminster Hall debate on three petitions - mainly the Revoke A50 one, but also the 2nd referendum, and 'just get on with it' petitions.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2019-04-01/debates/DAEA92D0-DB85-4370-B65C-2BB2FF6B5AE9/LeavingTheEuropeanUnion

It was fascinating to see part way through this debate that those representing the government just walked out of the debate. Also, many of the speakers made their cases for a public vote very convincingly indeed and I found myself somewhat moved towards their thinking. Their strongest arguments addressed my second concern above, but not too much was said about the first and third.


I agree there are many good reasons to oppose a 2nd ref.

My view is that it is the least worst option. A straightforward revoke would (for me at least) be denying the legitimacy of the original vote, which I think should be respected, even though I personally don't think it should ever have been called.

The case for me is clear: We have tried to implement to vote, it's been a disaster, and the best solution we have seems to many people worse than remaining. Are you really sure you still want to leave with this this deal?


You may well be right, and you also seem clear that the choice to be offered to the public is May's deal or Revoke.

reohn2
Posts: 35258
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 4 Apr 2019, 11:53am

thirdcrank wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Is anyone able to explain how a new Brexit referendum 'would undermine our democracy'? Especially considering that May has put the same plan to parliament on 3 separate occasions?


It's a meaningless phrase, or perhaps one with so many meanings as to render it meaningless without qualification.

IMO, the first referendum undermined our model of democracy if only by illustrating how that model is incompatible with referendums. It's undermined our model of democracy by rendering it impotent. That may be a good thing depending on POV but nobody seems to have come up with a long-term plan to fix it.

So, I'll suggest that a further referendum - or several - would just highlight the mess exposed by the first.

What do you suggest in the absence of a better method of determining a way forward for the country as a whole?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 1947
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 4 Apr 2019, 12:10pm

mr bajokoses wrote:You may well be right, and you also seem clear that the choice to be offered to the public is May's deal or Revoke.


The latter is merely an assumption. I don't see the govt putting forward anything else, and I don't see parliament supporting "no deal" on the ballot.

But I think a long delay with indeterminate outcome is much more likely than a 2nd ref, as the Tory party won't wear it.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 2195
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 4 Apr 2019, 12:17pm

pete75 wrote:
Cugel wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Put a picture up so we can see if there's any resemblance..... :wink:


There is a picture up. Can ye no see it staring oot like Harpo before he went white with shock at the madness of humans, especially the ones in suits?

Also, I have the horn, which I enjoy tooting vigorously at them as needs a good tooting-at!

Cugel



That's more Struwwelpeter than Harpo.


Harpo was a good friend of Struwwelpeter until that naughty lad had his final comeuppance. Harpo was quite nice in comparison so never employed the worst of Peter's tricks.

I myself have inherited only the good bits from Harpo, although some complain about the horn-toots. I can empathise with Peter but draw the line at sympathy.

My hair sticks up like that only because of some of the shocking things I read in this forum. I am quite sensitive.

Cugel

djnotts
Posts: 1131
Joined: 26 May 2008, 12:51pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 4 Apr 2019, 12:21pm

"What do you suggest in the absence of a better method of determining a way forward for the country as a whole?"

Is not the problem that there iS no way forward for the country as a whole? The issue has simply underlined the fact that the UK is hugely divided - the EU being to some extent a proxy for two very different views on how life should run. Fairness and equality ("left" for want of a better descriptor) or ultra-capitalism devil take the poor, disabled, disadvantaged, minorities ("right"). I do not see how such fundamentally opposed philosophies can coalesce to a "whole". We all know on which side the (armed) force of the state lies, so the outcome will inevitably be repression of the "left" by the "right". Many of the "right" who voted leave will live to rue the day. And won't even see the connection!

reohn2
Posts: 35258
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 4 Apr 2019, 12:22pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
If the result of another referendum is to stay as people say it's based on what we know now.
What are you going to say about the result of the last referendum as it was based on what we knew then?

The general public are better informed now than it was then,and the remain campaign has since then been proven to have acted illegally.
IMO the result should be declared null and void,because of outside influence and illegal funding
Your biggest problem will be Explain to us what the options on the ballot paper will actually be?
The only options will be black and white leave or stay otherwise we will become even more divided

Why not have another vote based on stay or leave,it's what was voted on last time?
Or it could be leave on clearly laid down terms or stay,that would be a compromise.
Based on what I've just said the results will simply be what people really want

Correct

Stayers on here who are against anybody voting with their gut are putting reasons forward on a purely personal level what's the difference there then, there Isn't any is there

No,remainers(stayers) on here are basing their opinion on what they believe is best for the whole of the UK which has been argued out on sound reason over many pages on this thread.
Leavers reasons OTOH have ranged from outlandish(Franco German world domination,and we can trade better outside the EU),to no sound reason at all other than "gut feeling" or "I don't like the EU and never have" which is IMO a mad way to decide on a country's future.

Reasons put forward for either way Are purely reasons to bolster someone's personal views or opinions

No they're not,one is by sound reasoning the other by wild accusation or no reason at all!

No one has the right to say who is right or wrong and comments like don't read can't read don't know fingers in ears eyes wide shut, Should be disregarded

But you place yourself in the "fingers in ears,eyes wide shut" catagory every time you put forward your reason for leaving is "gut feeling"!

What is now a certainty is that we will leave whatever, MPs knew months ago That's to reverse their decision after agreeing a 50 would be to commit political suicide in the eyes of the public based on democracy and law of the land

Nothing is certain anymore,and the MP's that represent us(gawd 'elp us)have shown,to me at least,that their interest lies in staying in power whatever the cost to the country and non more so than the Tory party currently in power!

Not everybody is pleased but that's the way it is and that's where we are

But it's not about pleasing it's about what's best for the whole and by reasoned argument and evidence,staying in the EU is by far the best bet for the country along with getting shut of this the worst government I've ever witnessed in my lifetime!

Ask 10 people tomorrow why they voted the way they did? Not which way they voted.

What about asking 60million if they would rather forget the whole thing or leave the EU?

EDITED for typos.
Last edited by reohn2 on 4 Apr 2019, 12:28pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Psamathe
Posts: 9867
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 4 Apr 2019, 12:22pm

mr bajokoses wrote:.....
I have been strongly opposed to another referendum for three reasons. First being the point eloquently put by thirdcrank above about its incompatibility with our representative parliamentary democracy. Secondly because I am not at all convinced that it would result in a clear mandate for any course of action. Thirdly because I don't think we can even agree what question would be asked on another referendum.....

I strongly support areferendum. Whilst I can appreciate your points and under different situations that would be a strong argument against a referendum, in this case:
1. "incompatibility with our representative parliamentary democracy." - our representative democracy seems not to be working and we need an answer. If Westminster and our representative democracy can't work then a referendum is one of the only courses left open.

2. I am not at all convinced that it would result in a clear mandate for any course of action - it would give an answer but as you say might not give a clear mandate. But I don;t consider a 52%/48% a "clear mandate".

3.I don't think we can even agree what question would be asked on another referendum - we pay experts and specialists in Westminster/Civil Service to work out things like that. If they can't even work out what questions to ask then we are in a far bigger mess than is already apparent.

Meanwhile, Dave Cameron is enjoying life, writing, spending time with Sam, loads of money, nice house in Oxfordshire. Must be nice to walk away from having caused such mayhem without it impacting you in any way, not dealing with any of the consequences of your stupidity.

Ian