** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 14 Apr 2019, 8:21am

kwackers wrote:
Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:.............. border on lunacy.
Lunacy?
I hope you don't think I'm bordering on lunacy, or millions of others bordering on it too?

Overhearing a comment or three earlier today whilst out shopping, I'm not (and we're not) lunatics in the slightest.

Shopping in a supermarket ........ not down the local boozer.

I wouldn't worry, it's no worse than I've heard remainers called.

On the plus side afaik no leaver has been killed by a remainer yet.



Remainers get called: enemies of the people, traitors, quislings, terrorists, unpatriotic.....
John

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Apr 2019, 9:37am

reohn2 wrote:I haven't accused you of gleaning your opinions from down the pub.
I never said you had.

It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.
Mick F. Cornwall

Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 14 Apr 2019, 9:44am

The problem with democracy is that, as has been said many times before, it is a poor system of government*, it's just better than anything else anyone has ever tried.

*people ignorant of the facts have a vote that carries as much weight as those who know what's going on

I was brought up half-Quaker, and Quakers don't do democracy (or didn't then), in business meetings they just discussed a question until everyone agreed what to do. This was partly so that people with more information to contribute could influence the outcome more than those who didn't know anything about it. It did mean everyone was committed to the decision. It could also take a very very long time to decide things. It also relied on things like the fact that Quakers are very strict about truth, not the case now in the population as a whole, and about respecting other people, and that people had to be open about their opinions rather than saying one thing and secretly voting another way. It's not practical at a national level. Unfortunately, therefore, at a national level, we're stuck with everyone getting a vote however little they understand the issues, however reluctant they are to listen to people and organisations that do, and however dishonest and ill-intentioned they may be.
It is interesting to note that younger people, who are in general more highly educated than previous generations, are very much in favour of remain, and are no longer following the usual pattern of drifting to the right in their later 20s and 30s, and that the tory party is getting very concerned about that.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/to ... MEhhhO4GBU
Last edited by Flinders on 14 Apr 2019, 9:44am, edited 1 time in total.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Apr 2019, 9:44am

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I haven't accused you of gleaning your opinions from down the pub.
I never said you had.

It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.


This is so unlikely as to be almost inconceivable.

"I don't know any remainers personally who want to talk to me about the subject" might be accurate.

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 14 Apr 2019, 10:01am

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I haven't accused you of gleaning your opinions from down the pub.
I never said you had.

It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. […]

Where? I'm pretty sure that's misunderstanding what was suggested.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 14 Apr 2019, 10:07am

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I haven't accused you of gleaning your opinions from down the pub.
I never said you had.

That settles that then
It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub.

Where?

I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.

The problem is on an open forum whilst you have an opinion no one knows how you formulated it.It's a reasonable enquiry to ask when you express an opinion what brought you to that conclusion,so far you seem reluctant to answer.Which is puzzling.

EDIT:- i don't think it unreasonable that remainers press leavers for answers as to why they're so sure leaving the EU is the best course of action to take.
In fact I think it's morally beholding of them to do so,especially as it's possibly the single most important desicion the UK will make in our lifetimes,and that the vote was so close as to split the country down the middle on what is a very contentious issue.
Last edited by reohn2 on 14 Apr 2019, 10:42am, edited 1 time in total.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Apr 2019, 10:41am

Mick F wrote:It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.


Actually it was you yourself that stated that, "down the pub we are all leavers" or words to that effect.
So perhaps a little easing up on accusing others of accusing. (or you"ll get like "Natural" it's his 'raison d'etre'!)

It's interesting but not surprising that you only have contact with like minded folk.

I cannot say the same.
I know both some leavers and some remainers.

And I am curious and passionate enough to try to understand the leavers.
Broadly their reasons were at the time of the Referendum,

1.The money we paid to the EU;
it was in their view a straight forward paying out. The real figures and benefits were simply not recognized, understandably because it is a vastly complex area.

2.Immigration into the UK from all sources( they did not differentiate)

3.Too much bureaucracy;
the long destroyed myth (on here), that the EU dictated and created rules and regulations that were unnecessary and interfering.
(Quite unsubstantiated IMV, EU has been beneficial in so many areas)

4.A belief that we could easily trade on terms with other nations that would benefit us more than EU membership, a return to a colonial past of sorts.

Additionally few of those people had travelled much in Europe outside of a package tour to Benidorm or similar. They exclusively spoke no other language excepting Welsh in some cases.
So their experience of mainland Europe was either non existent or limited.

As I understand it a fair few of those leavers would now at least reconsider their vote or vote to remain.

Broadly this is because what they thought, (and in some cases really believed) at the time,would benefit the UK has now been shown to be at best dubious and at worst a genuine fabrication by wealthy vested interest groups.

I asked recently about an opinion from a casual but fairly well known acquaintance and he replied " for me it's still about all that money we pay".
The complexities of this require one to simply take a deep breath and move on, perhaps pointing out one or two infrastructure projects locally that were completed by EU funds. And the newly roofed and insulated houses all around in N Wales.
This acquaintance is from the Black Country and knows little of such local things.

I suspect his main reason is immigration. He is a nice guy but little travelled. Happy in what he loves- camping and old (British) machines. I like him well enough and he is not silly.

That his food will become more expensive he will argue that the pineapple farmers "still want to sell us pineapples"!!

True but they don't come tax free from the near Continent, I would reply.

sjs
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby sjs » 14 Apr 2019, 11:17am

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I haven't accused you of gleaning your opinions from down the pub.
I never said you had.

It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.


I only know one person who admits to having voted leave.

thirdcrank
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Apr 2019, 11:45am

......
Last edited by thirdcrank on 14 Apr 2019, 1:42pm, edited 1 time in total.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 14 Apr 2019, 11:54am

sjs wrote: I only know one person who admits to having voted leave.

I know a few, not anyone I'd claim was a good mate though.

My aunt who is getting on a bit so had a vested interest in £350 million quid a week (that was the only reason she had).

My brother in law who's one of the "I'm not racist but..." brigade who seems to spend most of his time trying to 'chum it up' with landed gentry and folk with money despite not having two shillings to rub together.

A guy I used to work with who's actually moderately bright but seems to use his intelligence to winkle out obscure but unimportant 'facts' which then seem to become the only argument worth pursuing whilst doing a grand job of ignoring the elephant.

And several occasional acquaintances who on the whole seem to have voted leave because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Apr 2019, 12:16pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mick F wrote:It was suggested on here that I get my opinions from down the pub. I was explaining that other people have opinions and they aren't all at odds with mine. In fact, I don't know any remainers personally. Never met one or heard any. Only contact I have with remainers is on this forum.


Actually it was you yourself that stated that, "down the pub we are all leavers" or words to that effect.
So perhaps a little easing up on accusing others of accusing. (or you"ll get like "Natural" it's his 'raison d'etre'!)
Yes, I said that.

It was later or even before. I'm not about to trawl through nearly 1000 pages to find it.
Something about asking my opinions on leaving and then someone said that I get all my opinions from down the pub ------- or words to that effect.

Yes, we are all leavers, and like I said, I don't know anyone personally who is a remainer and I know loads of people who aren't pub goers at all.

From what we see here, remainers are a rare species.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 14 Apr 2019, 12:31pm

So Mick what's the consensus among the people you speak to for you and them voting to leave the EU?
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merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 14 Apr 2019, 12:47pm

Hi all, Would it not be possible for folk like Reohn2 to just accept the fact that people are perfectly entitled to vote for either option, then after they admit to a choice not be verbally battered until they explain the last detail of their reason, just accept that they made a democratic choice?
After elections I don't insist that everyone should explain not only their voting choice, but also their reasoning behind that choice!
Normally we only get such abuse when it comes to football, which is totally deviseive. One should just learn to live in this unequal, unfair world.
MM

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Apr 2019, 12:59pm

Yep.
No specific reason(s) as far as I'm concerned. I just want us out of the EU before it's too late. You argue that it's too late now, and I would admit that it could (sadly) be true. This doesn't and didn't stop me voting Leave.

As far as I can see, and lots of others see it, the next step after EU is United States of Europe. May not happen this decade or the next, or even before I'm in my dotage, but it will happen.

Get out whilst we can.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 14 Apr 2019, 2:27pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi all, Would it not be possible for folk like Reohn2 to just accept the fact that people are perfectly entitled to vote for either option, then after they admit to a choice not be verbally battered until they explain the last detail of their reason, just accept that they made a democratic choice?
After elections I don't insist that everyone should explain not only their voting choice, but also their reasoning behind that choice!
Normally we only get such abuse when it comes to football, which is totally deviseive. One should just learn to live in this unequal, unfair world.
MM

Is it so unreasonable to ask why brexit voters voted the way they did on such an important and potentially once in a lifetime chance,that affects the country for generations to come?

I believe I as a remainer have the right to ask such questions,because I worry about my three daughters,SinLs,eight grandchildren and three great grandchildren,and how they will fare in a UK being led into what I see as economic oblivion by an idiotic government that's already cost the country ten of billions of £££££s upto now and we haven't even left yet!
Not to mention people blathering on about WW2 or Franco German domination of the world :roll:

General elections are held every 5years or less so that if the electorate don't like what they got they vote them out,not so the brexit referendum.
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