** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 27 Apr 2019, 1:34pm

reohn2 wrote:But we have over forty years of experience with the EU,we know what we're dealing with.
Yes... aint it awful!

a small fish,better being in the shoal than being isolated,especially when there's big hungry fish about.


Not if you prefer being in a Nation State rather than an undemocratic remote Superstate that is continually screwing you and spending your money on things you didnt decide to.

Al
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 27 Apr 2019, 1:44pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:
I never used to, but I actually now have great sympathy for the SNP. Who wants to be part of a union who's population behaved in that manner?


No probs here with Scottish Independence or with a United Ireland either. Nations pursuing Nation State status have my backing. Empires create problems IMO, and they never endure.

Al
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 27 Apr 2019, 1:48pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:I understood what drove the Brexit campaign very well. Selective presentation of facts, exaggerations, and downright lies from both camps, each designed specifically for their target audience, is what drove the debate. And still it continues. The idea that any one "side" was better or worse than the other for spin, exaggeration, and downright lying is utterly laughable.

And I suspect that if the nation stays in the bickering will escalate too. Whichever way it goes, I'm afraid we're going to commit economic, political, and social suicide, because the bulk of people in each camp can't see beyond their own self interest.

I never used to, but I actually now have great sympathy for the SNP. Who wants to be part of a union who's population behaved in that manner?


I disagree about the "beyond their own self interest" piece, and about the degree of lying and spin.

Brexit is a proxy campaign to change the nature of British society and has never been stated as such. Conflict about its implementation is not a bad thing; rolling over and accepting a radical change in how we run the country without debate would be appalling. Such a debate was not only not had during the campaign, it was deliberately avoided.

This is the consequence of a dishonest campaign.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 27 Apr 2019, 1:50pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:I understood what drove the Brexit campaign very well. Selective presentation of facts, exaggerations, and downright lies from both camps, each designed specifically for their target audience, is what drove the debate. And still it continues. The idea that any one "side" was better or worse than the other for spin, exaggeration, and downright lying is utterly laughable.


Hmmm.
Benefits of EU membership have included easy visa free travel, no excess fees for mobile phone and data usage across the region, health care at low or reduced cost across the region.
Living or working across the region.

In the UK considerable investment into the UK's infrastructure (with new roads and bridges statutorily including cycle/ped paths).

Investment in older housing stock, re-roofing, double glazing and other insulation measures.

Improved beach water quality.

A tax free, import duty free, food supply from countries with better winter growing climates plus some delicious exotic food stuffs.
Legislation to successfully improve fish stocks.
Decisions by the Euro courts upholding workers rights.
Blocking of media monopoly by Mr Murdoch etc.

Money and legislative furthering to enhance low carbon energy.
Attempts to improve vehicle emission controls.

And straight bananas.

Whereas "leave" promised much that has now totally evaporated.IMHO
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 27 Apr 2019, 1:52pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 27 Apr 2019, 1:52pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:To be utterly fair, I have yet to see an expansive argument to support either camp that bears total scrutiny. People voted whichever way they did because that's simply what they preferred. No one is going to be swayed either way by any kind of argument, because deeply held beliefs are founded upon emotion, not logic, so give up trying. Aside from which, no one's the boss of me - I nor anyone else owe anyone a reason or an argument of any kind, and large tranches of the population need to get over it.


My belief that, on balance, staying in the EU would be better for the UK is not "deeply held". I recognise the many ills of the EU, particularly it's support of neo-liberalism albeit with some (but insufficient) social infrastructure support & provision. My primary reasons for thinking membership is preferable are:

1. A fragmented Europe is likely to return to internecine inter-nation squabbles that were the norm for hundreds of years, culminating in WWI & WWII. WWIII will become more likely. This is especially the case given the likely involvement of other very large power blocks (Russia, USA, China) who will certainly predate upon a fragmented and weakened EUrope.

2. Those promoting the leaving of the EU are largely xenophobic, racist and nationalist in the worst meaning of that term. They are lead by neo-liberals and proto-facists. The UK in the hands of such people will become even worse than it is under the rule of the current rather right-wing Tories.

I believe these are real and present dangers, with plenty of evidence to suggest that they're a very likely outcomes of leaving the EU. That's not to say that staying in the EU will be unproblematic - any future scenario for the world, including the EU, looks bleak. Some possible scenarios look a lot bleaker than others.

Lance Dopestrong wrote:Whether Brexit happens or not, the nation should stop bickering and get fully behind whichever way it goes. If we don't, then whether we stay in or leave, we will ultimately fail. Brexit isn't causing upheaval - the behaviour of people is causing upheaval, whether they be currency speculators, politicians, or simple ordinary people who would rather watch their houses burn than accept help from someone with whom they just happen to disagree.


I have no intention of helping the likes of Boris, Mogg, Farago and similar into power. They will ruin the lives of a vast majority of UK citizens and may even fragment the UK itself. There would be no holding them back in their dark desires - not a chance of finding any acceptable compromise that would protect not just the currenly weak and vulnerable but the great majority of the population. To me they look like totalitarians who will, once they have power, countenance no opposition.

Cugel

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 27 Apr 2019, 2:30pm

reohn2 wrote:There's nothing 'solid' in favour of helmets or brexit,on the contrary there's solid fact on remaining in the EU and only in certain and narrow boundaries and conditions are helmets beneficial to the cyclist.
Opinions both.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 27 Apr 2019, 2:35pm

For Mick.

The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centered on reason as the primary source of knowledge


(my bold)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

I get that there is an attraction in taking us back to the 1950s, but surely back to the 17th century is a bit much, even for the most hardened Brexiter.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 27 Apr 2019, 2:39pm

Yep.
Argument centred on reason instead of biased lies.
Has that happened in the Brexit Debate and the Helmet Debate? No, on both.

Lance Dopestrong has put it very nicely. Thank you Lance.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 3:15pm

Lance D
Cugel and PDQ have covered the reasons for staying that I subscribe to,so I won't elaborate further.

As for the financial security of the UK,IMO it will be as it is presently under the current government,precarious,and that has nothing to do with the EU.
If Italy and Greece default on their loans there'll be chaos however as the UK isn't in the euro I can't see that as being as big a problem for the UK as those countries who are.
As for the EU contracting at the rate you mention do you have a link to your claims?
The fact is that the EU is the UK's nearest trading partner with 44% of our exports going there,on the flip side we also import most of our goods from there,all this is done trarif free under membership agreement.
To think the EU will continue with such an arrangement on us leaving has been put to bed many times on this thread,it ain't going to happen without free movement of labour and it certainly ain't going to to happen with a country outside the EU without a lot of long term negotiation,and which will be to the EU's advantage not ours.

To answer your final and sarky paragraph,I'm not about to trot out the same agruments that PDQ and Cugel have mentioned above other than to say that if you're that interested then you'll have read the remain argument posted on the past 900 odd pages of this thread,along with all that's available in the various media.

TBH during the referendum campaign I never read in depth remain campaign's blurb as I knew what I'd experienced and gleaned of the EU since 1975.
I knew it wasn't perfect,what large organisation is? But felt sure it was the best place for the UK ie; on the inside with a voice and a seat at the table.
However I did listen carefully to the Brexit campaign argument and TBH I've seldom seen and heard such blatent and utter tosh,lies and spin not to mention the xenophobic and racial nonsense from the likes of BoJo,Farage,Gove,et al,which alone convinced me I was right in voting remain.
We are where we are,a country split down the middle.
Which IMO is because of the those blatent lies and xenophobic spew from those brexit campaign leaders and one in particular, Nigel Farage.
And still no one has yet been able to put a reasonable argument for leaving that hasn't been demolished!
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 3:25pm

al_yrpal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:But we have over forty years of experience with the EU,we know what we're dealing with.
Yes... aint it awful!

Perhaps ou could put forward a reasonable argument that hasn't already been demolished as to how it's so awful and that's not directly related to our own governments failings.


Not if you prefer being in a Nation State rather than an undemocratic remote Superstate that is continually screwing you and spending your money on things you didnt decide to.

Al

But we are a Nation State and if you don't think so youll have to educate me as to how and why.
We aren't part of an 'undemocratic Super State' that argument has been demolished already on these pages many times,keep saying it doesn't make it true!
Like Theresa May keep saying "strong and stable government" doesn't make her govenment strong and stable!
Or you keep claming the opposite benches in the HC are full of 'Trots'!
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 3:29pm

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:There's nothing 'solid' in favour of helmets or brexit,on the contrary there's solid fact on remaining in the EU and only in certain and narrow boundaries and conditions are helmets beneficial to the cyclist.
Opinions both.

No we'll have to disagree on that
Anyway what's your opinion on why we should leave the EU
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 27 Apr 2019, 3:42pm

reohn2 wrote:We aren't part of an 'undemocratic Super State' that argument has been demolished already on these pages many times,keep saying it doesn't make it true!

Or you keep claming the opposite benches in the HC are full of 'Trots'!


:lol: It hasnt been demolished and no matter how many times you keep asserting that it has it wont wash. None so blind... Even the BBC pundits and commentators admit as much.

No, apart from the few obvious Trots at the top Labours Trots are keeping a low profile in an enormous vanguard just for now. Dont worry, they will appear at the Party Conference and when a General Election looms.

Al
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 3:49pm

al_yrpal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:We aren't part of an 'undemocratic Super State' that argument has been demolished already on these pages many times,keep saying it doesn't make it true!

Or you keep claming the opposite benches in the HC are full of 'Trots'!


:lol: It hasnt been demolished and no matter how many times you keep asserting that it has it wont wash. None so blind... Even the BBC pundits and commentators admit as much.

I only ask for facts to back up your statement,if you could oblige please as the MEP elections draw near....

No, apart from the few obvious Trots at the top Labours Trots are keeping a low profile in an enormous vanguard just for now. Dont worry, they will appear at the Party Conference and when a General Election looms.

Al

Define me a 'Trot'?
Last edited by reohn2 on 27 Apr 2019, 3:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 27 Apr 2019, 3:53pm

Define me a 'Trot'?


A convenient word to use as an insult thereby avoiding having to engage in meaningful argument.

Shorter version: "Dog- whistle"

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 27 Apr 2019, 4:52pm

al_yrpal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:We aren't part of an 'undemocratic Super State' that argument has been demolished already on these pages many times,keep saying it doesn't make it true!

Or you keep claming the opposite benches in the HC are full of 'Trots'!


:lol: It hasnt been demolished and no matter how many times you keep asserting that it has it wont wash. None so blind... Even the BBC pundits and commentators admit as much.

No, apart from the few obvious Trots at the top Labours Trots are keeping a low profile in an enormous vanguard just for now. Dont worry, they will appear at the Party Conference and when a General Election looms.

Al

Do you have a MAGA hat? If not, why not? It would suit your views, the quality of your reasoning, and your international preferences for trade very well.