** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 27 Apr 2019, 4:54pm

"If your view require you to assume that every expert who disagrees with you is part of a massive conspiracy, then you should probably re-evaluate your views."
(source, thelogicofscience.com)

mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 27 Apr 2019, 5:08pm

thirdcrank wrote:
mr bajokoses wrote: ... Perhaps the biggest difference between the two debates is that the 'winners' of the helmet debate will not get to force their world-view on the 'losers'.


Do you follow helmet threads? One of the recurrent themes is that there's a lot of pressure on non-wearers amounting to de facto compulsion.

Here's a current one
Big Bike revival ... yet more helmet normalising!
viewtopic.php?p=1345938#p1345938


Thanks for the enlightenment, I had no idea it was quite so polarised.

Not a lot of live and let live there :cry:

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 27 Apr 2019, 6:02pm

Flinders wrote:Do you have a MAGA hat? If not, why not? It would suit your views, the quality of your reasoning, and your international preferences for trade very well.


America is doing rather well economically under Trump 3.5% GDP growth. My pals there all dislike him intensely. I cant see the point in offering my support for him, I'm a democrat at heart which is why I dislike the EU and the hard left and I believe that free trade makes the world a better place especially the poorest places in Africa. From what I have seen Trump will get re-elected.
Really good article in todays paper about chlorinated chicken if thats what you are on about. The Yanks think its just another EU ruse to block free trade.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 7:02pm

Anyway back to Brexit.....
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 27 Apr 2019, 7:25pm

al_yrpal wrote:
America is doing rather well economically under Trump 3.5% GDP growth. My pals there all dislike him intensely. I cant see the point in offering my support for him, I'm a democrat at heart which is why I dislike the EU and the hard left and I believe that free trade makes the world a better place especially the poorest places in Africa. From what I have seen Trump will get re-elected.
Really good article in todays paper about chlorinated chicken if thats what you are on about. The Yanks think its just another EU ruse to block free trade.

Al


Not so sure if all that growth can be attributed to Trump. Obama laid some foundations IMV.

But I really do wonder why that free trade is so laudable when it's with the USA or some dodgy African leader but not ok with some broadly democratic EU country.
Which has some pretty stringŷent (for the most part) worker's protections, a nod at least to an agricultural which is both efficient but not devasting to the enviroment.
And a relatively short distance over whichbto transport said goods.

Enlighten me?

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 27 Apr 2019, 7:53pm

One of the great things about the EU is tariff free trade. You imply I said I wasnt in favour of that? I always have been, but without all sorts of other unwelcome and unecessary conditions attached.

Yet another example of someone accusing someone else of something that wasnt ever said or meant! Do try to keep up...

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 27 Apr 2019, 8:10pm

al_yrpal wrote:One of the great things about the EU is tariff free trade. You imply I said I wasnt in favour of that? I always have been, but without all sorts of other unwelcome and unecessary conditions attached.

Yet another example of someone accusing someone else of something that wasnt ever said or meant! Do try to keep up...

Al

Average trade tariff with the US is 3½%. So we are going to all this negative stuff to save us 3½%? The drop in the value of £ was way more than that! It’s non-tariff barriers that are the issue and what people are talking about with e.g. US really wont help much in that regard.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/non-tariff-barriers

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 27 Apr 2019, 8:24pm

al_yrpal wrote:One of the great things about the EU is tariff free trade. You imply I said I wasnt in favour of that? I always have been, but without all sorts of other unwelcome and unecessary conditions attached.

Yet another example of someone accusing someone else of something that wasnt ever said or meant! Do try to keep up...

Al

Why always so testy Al?

Not accusing of anything...Just asking why one is preferable to the other?
It that not a fair and reasonable question?

And those unwelcome conditions you cite are??
For that is surely the nub.

And while we are here, do you think that Trump's administration won't want any conditions attached?

It just seems to me that we have, broadly speaking, a very good arrangment with the EU.
And that it couldn't be bettered by anything even remotely likely to be offered anywhere in the foreseeable future.
And that's without a few benefits I listed (again) above.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 27 Apr 2019, 11:02pm

reohn2 wrote:
Much I don't like bringing it up yet again,but I feel a reminder is needed.
When you or any other brexit supporter can come up with a credible argument in favour of leaving the EU I'll listen.


I don't think you need a credible argument. This is an emotional decision and you either like it or you don't. As many Brexit supporters were quick to point out, it's worth the cost. It is also a decision about the future and no-one has a monoply on that - we are all conjecturing. To some extent I agree with Brexit supporters that the process can be endured - how easily remains to be seen. The problem is that there is really only one way to find out the true cost of Brexit and that's to do it, by which time it's too late. Brexit has opened up an expression of identity, a touching base of who we are and where our security lies. A much better analogy than helmets might be whether Britain should be a republic and the monarchy abolished.

So I for one allow Brexit supporters their gut instincts but have to say that mine differ. What we need now isn't persuasion and argument but resolution (and that's where a second referendum or GE comes in and the law, based on sound procedure, takes effect).

What is gratifying however is seeing the Brexit party playing a full part in the democratic European parliamentary elections. :D
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 27 Apr 2019, 11:09pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:There's nothing 'solid' in favour of helmets or brexit,on the contrary there's solid fact on remaining in the EU and only in certain and narrow boundaries and conditions are helmets beneficial to the cyclist.
Opinions both.

No we'll have to disagree on that
Anyway what's your opinion on why we should leave the EU
I have said it many times.
I want our independence back.
I don't want a United States of Europe to be even on the horizon for us.
Sooner we get out, the better.
Never wanted to be in in the first place.

Opinion.
It's mine, and given another referendum, I would vote the same way. Given the "best out of three" referendums, I would still vote OUT. I will vote OUT until my dying day.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 11:13pm

Mick F wrote:I have said it many times.
I want our independence back.

We never lost it.

I don't want a United States of Europe to be even on the horizon for us

How can that be when it would need all member states to agree to it and the UK and one or teo other members never would.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 27 Apr 2019, 11:16pm

horizon wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Much I don't like bringing it up yet again,but I feel a reminder is needed.
When you or any other brexit supporter can come up with a credible argument in favour of leaving the EU I'll listen.


I don't think you need a credible argument. This is an emotional decision and you either like it or you don't. As many Brexit supporters were quick to point out, it's worth the cost. It is also a decision about the future and no-one has a monoply on that - we are all conjecturing. To some extent I agree with Brexit supporters that the process can be endured - how easily remains to be seen. The problem is that there is really only one way to find out the true cost of Brexit and that's to do it, by which time it's too late. Brexit has opened up an expression of identity, a touching base of who we are and where our security lies.....


And yet upon (a hard) Brexit some things (and freedoms) will be lost to a whole generation or longer.
That is not conjecture.
Boris Johnson's sister is campaigning against Brexit for that very reason- she wants her children to have the freedom of Europe.
She thinks such a freedom is of great value.
I agree.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 27 Apr 2019, 11:18pm, edited 1 time in total.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 27 Apr 2019, 11:16pm

Mick F wrote:I don't want a United States of Europe to be even on the horizon for us.


Would you be willing to consider a United States of the World?
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 27 Apr 2019, 11:33pm

Absolutely not. :shock:
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 27 Apr 2019, 11:43pm

horizon wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Much I don't like bringing it up yet again,but I feel a reminder is needed.
When you or any other brexit supporter can come up with a credible argument in favour of leaving the EU I'll listen.

I don't think you need a credible argument. This is an emotional decision and you either like it or you don't. As many Brexit supporters were quick to point out, it's worth the cost.

So gut feeling and emotional response is a good enough reason to leave?
I'm sorry but that's never a good reason in this situation.
It is also a decision about the future and no-one has a monoply on that - we are all conjecturing.

Any future is conjecture,the future can't be seen,but it can estimated to an extent and the past can be a good indicator of what the future may look like,if only to learn from it.

To some extent I agree with Brexit supporters that the process can be endured - how easily remains to be seen

Anything can be endured,but it's the damage the enduring does that matters,and whether we can make the future easier for all not just the few.

The problem is that there is really only one way to find out the true cost of Brexit and that's to do it, by which time it's too late

Exactly!
When you jump it doesn't hurt however the landing is an entirely different thing!

Brexit has opened up an expression of identity, a touching base of who we are and where our security lies

I don't need brexit to show me my indentity,it doesn't involve wrapping myself in some flag or other or rejecting immigrants or people who are a different colour of skin or religion,which is what brexit is giving way to by the extremes of political expression seen in today's UK as a result of the referendum.
So I for one allow Brexit supporters their gut instincts but have to say that mine differ

A man or woman can have whatever instincts they like but without sound reason they are nothing more than primal reactions that can get people in a lot of trouble

What we need now isn't persuasion and argument but resolution (and that's where a second referendum or GE comes in and the law, based on sound procedure, takes effect)

If persuasion and sound reasonable argument are out of the question then what should a GE a second referendum or law be based on?



What is gratifying however is seeing the Brexit party playing a full part in the democratic European parliamentary elections. :D

:wink:
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