** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 29 May 2019, 7:05am

bovlomov wrote:Never mind the EU. Brexity politicians have turned their fire on the "faceless unelected bureaucrats" here in the UK. "Unelected" civil servants and judges are treated traitors and 5th columnists. Leavers are even turning on each other for crimes against Brexit purity.

It won't end until the UK is cleansed of all impure elements. Or until the UK comes to its senses.


That is the result of the civil service forgetting it's' supportive role to the country and churning out anti brexit propaganda instead.
It is so openly biased that it has thrown away public respect and replaced it with a corrupt political ideology

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 May 2019, 7:15am

windmiller wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Never mind the EU. Brexity politicians have turned their fire on the "faceless unelected bureaucrats" here in the UK. "Unelected" civil servants and judges are treated traitors and 5th columnists. Leavers are even turning on each other for crimes against Brexit purity.

It won't end until the UK is cleansed of all impure elements. Or until the UK comes to its senses.


That is the result of the civil service forgetting it's' supportive role to the country and churning out anti brexit propaganda instead.
It is so openly biased that it has thrown away public respect and replaced it with a corrupt political ideology


Some examples, please.
John

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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 29 May 2019, 7:23am

https://brexitcentral.com/treasury-bank ... us-brexit/ one of many but I don't want to insult you too much with the truth

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 May 2019, 7:28am

windmiller wrote:https://brexitcentral.com/treasury-bank ... us-brexit/ one of many but I don't want to insult you too much with the truth



Ah! Patrick Minford! Mr neutral.
John

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 29 May 2019, 7:55am

Oldjohnw wrote:[Ah! Patrick Minford! Mr neutral.

In that article he avoids all discussion about the failings of pro-Brexit ministers. It is they who ruined Brexit, by their ignorance and hubris. He complains about the immigration policy, as if it comes from the civil service. It doesn't. It has a long pre-referendum history, inside May's spiteful head. I'm not aware of it being challenged, by ministers or ex-ministers.

As for his economic arguments - he is in a minority of one. It isn't only treasury civil servants that disagree with him. It is economists across the globe. And lawyers and trade negotiators. Even if they are all wrong, you can hardly blame civil servants for using the 99.9% for their models rather than the 0.1%. Also, Minford has admitted that manufacturing would be the casualty of Brexit. Perhaps politicians would find that difficult to sell.

The civil service is just another scapegoat.

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syklist
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby syklist » 29 May 2019, 8:13am

windmiller wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Never mind the EU. Brexity politicians have turned their fire on the "faceless unelected bureaucrats" here in the UK. "Unelected" civil servants and judges are treated traitors and 5th columnists. Leavers are even turning on each other for crimes against Brexit purity.

It won't end until the UK is cleansed of all impure elements. Or until the UK comes to its senses.


That is the result of the civil service forgetting it's' supportive role to the country and churning out anti brexit propaganda instead.
It is so openly biased that it has thrown away public respect and replaced it with a corrupt political ideology


It seems to me that Brexit is now turning away from complaining about the alleged failings of the EU apparatus and is now going to completely consume civil society in the UK.

Civil servants are just one important part of civil society with a role to advise as impartially as is possible. Just because you don't like the results and conclusions of their work does not mean you can say they are biased. But now they are regarded by the Brexit camp, together with judges, politicians and almost any other part of the state apparatus are part of the enemy that must be destroyed.

Once civil society is dismantled, that is the respect people had for their society and political and administrative structures is destroyed then the path to fascism and dictatorship is much easier to follow.

I am sure the dark and hidden forces that are pushing Brexit are fully aware of this.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 29 May 2019, 8:30am

windmiller wrote:https://brexitcentral.com/treasury-bank ... us-brexit/ one of many but I don't want to insult you too much with the truth

So... economic analyses that the author doesn't agree with are propaganda. Even though pro-Brexit economists are largely in agreement with the analysis (see the links I posted above).

Numerous economists have said Brexit will be costly for the economy. Some Brexiters have said that it's a price worth paying. Others are shouting 'Propaganda!'.

Some folks will always do that sort of thing. There is not evidence in that article that the civil service are either taking any stance, nor publishing propaganda.

As far as I know, they are publishing economic reports for purposes of planning. But since the author does not include any references or original sources, it is actually impossible to tell what reports or 'propaganda' he is writing about.
If we want to talk about propaganda, how about this, from the author (Professor Patrick Minford, chair of Applied Economics at Cardiff University)
This deceitfulness is bad enough but worse is that their propaganda efforts would lead to terrible economics. My message to Brits is: unlike these self-styled experts, you got this issue right. Yes, you were right to ask for your democracy back, and yes, this is also good for the British economy, contrary to all that Project Fear.


This is an opinion piece, published as analysis, from someone who ought to know better.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 29 May 2019, 8:51am

Hasn't this been the problem since the referendum,leavers claims being found completely lacking when held up to scrutiny?
Opinion isn't fact unless backed up with facts,and the brexit argument is sadly lacking in them,whether it be,economically,taking back control or the outlandish claims of Germany wishing to rule the world.
The truth is the Uk is being sold down the river by neoliberalist shysters with dollar signs for eyeballs at the expense of the rest of the populous,bonkers doesn't begin to describe a no deal brexit,and decent deal brexit is proving to be as yet unable to get throught the House thanks to the most pathetic and incompetent PM and government the UK has had in a lifetime.
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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 May 2019, 9:08am

This is an article for 'Brexit Central'. It is not economic analysis: it is coming up with clichés which fit an opinion.
John

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 29 May 2019, 9:15am

reohn2 wrote: ....... thanks to the most pathetic and incompetent PM and government the UK has had in a lifetime.
Yes, I agree with this.

It's because of them, that we're in this mess. Yes, I'm a Leaver, but I was happy just gently moaning about it, but now we have a complete can of worms.

Do I still want Brexit?
Not 100% sure really, and I'm not happy about wearing the "Brexit Badge" and being tarred with the same brush as the extremists.
If I could turn the clocks back, we wouldn't have joined in the first place. If I could turn the clock back not as far, we should have left sleeping dogs lie.

Now the can of worms is open, it's too late to push them back in.
Mick F. Cornwall

BrightonRock
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby BrightonRock » 29 May 2019, 9:20am

So, almost 3 years down the road from the vote and not an inch further forward and a seeming total impasse on any Parliamentary agreement.

It seems to me that this complete stalling is part of a long term strategy to if not defeat Brexit then kick it so far down the road (5 years, 10 even) that the public will just forget about it. There's sound reasoning to this strategy. A very diluted, far off Brexit would avoid the likely break up of the United Kingdom, a hard border in NI and the ravages of a hard exit from the free trade zone.

Its for this reason that Boris (and anyone who advocates a no deal scenario) will never become the PM.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 May 2019, 9:24am

BrightonRock wrote:So, almost 3 years down the road from the vote and not an inch further forward and a seeming total impasse on any Parliamentary agreement.

It seems to me that this complete stalling is part of a long term strategy to if not defeat Brexit then kick it so far down the road (5 years, 10 even) that the public will just forget about it. There's sound reasoning to this strategy. A very diluted, far off Brexit would avoid the likely break up of the United Kingdom, a hard border in NI and the ravages of a hard exit from the free trade zone.

Its for this reason that Boris (and anyone who advocates a no deal scenario) will never become the PM.


But I suspect Boris will become PM: most Tory MPs and the very moderately sized party are completely daft. The general public don't get a say.
John

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 29 May 2019, 9:30am

Oldjohnw wrote: The general public don't get a say.
The trouble is, we did.
Had the Remain vote won, Cameron would probably still be PM.

As we voted Leave, it's a complete mess.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 29 May 2019, 9:34am

Oldjohnw wrote:But I suspect Boris will become PM: most Tory MPs and the very moderately sized party are completely daft. The general public don't get a say.

But surely that's taking back control?
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mr bajokoses
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mr bajokoses » 29 May 2019, 9:35am

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote: ....... thanks to the most pathetic and incompetent PM and government the UK has had in a lifetime.
Yes, I agree with this.

It's because of them, that we're in this mess. Yes, I'm a Leaver, but I was happy just gently moaning about it, but now we have a complete can of worms.

Do I still want Brexit?
Not 100% sure really, and I'm not happy about wearing the "Brexit Badge" and being tarred with the same brush as the extremists.
If I could turn the clocks back, we wouldn't have joined in the first place. If I could turn the clock back not as far, we should have left sleeping dogs lie.

Now the can of worms is open, it's too late to push them back in.


Mick, that is very candid, thanks for sharing it.

IMO moderate politicians are already moving towards disowning brexit. It's only a matter of time until it's only being pushed by extremists - in that category I include Johnson, Raab, Rees-Mogg, Hoey, Corbyn, Farage (obviously), and still many others.

Moderate people like Mick will increasingly be horrified at what is happening in the name of 'the will of the people', what the extremists are doing in their name.

What can they do about it? For a start, not voting for the Brexit Party.