** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[mercalia]

I find it interesting that in this whole thread, there is scant if any interest expressed in Scotland's position in the Brexit debacle. As is the case with the British media, everything, and I mean everything, is about England and this at a time when every council area in Scotland, apart from Orkney and Shetland (traditionally Lib Dems) voted for the SNP's EU remain position. The Labour Party was completely wiped out with a derisory vote and with no MEPs elected, but again this is not worthy of interest. Now, this is an extraordinary result but evokes no interest, not a whit or a jottle from those south of the border.
The truth of the matter seems to be that in England, nobody cares about Scotland. Down south everyone, as here in this forum, is completely wrapped up in this battle of political personalities and infighting which in England now passes for politics. I imagine that this will be the case here in this forum and elsewhere until once more the Independence issue is raised and then we become for a little while, worthy of attention.

well nothing really is happening in Scotland? They want to remain in the EU or leave the UK, what else is there? All the trouble is in England? SO I think you are being unfair

[mjr]

Farage and his ilk had never been heard of twenty or thirty years ago.

That's not true because Farage has been an MEP for 20 years, quitting the Conservatives and cofounding UKIP just under 30 years ago. Both of those events were heard of. Farage is a career politician pretending to be an outsider and the BBC and press help maintain this fiction.

I paid no attention to any of the campaigns. I had no need to as I knew how to vote, and given the opportunity, I would continue to vote Out just like I would have done since I was eighteen years old.

So any old loons can get your vote just by having an "Out" name. No need to tell you any policies. Just "Out".

[al_yrpal]

I find it interesting that in this whole thread, there is scant if any interest expressed in Scotland's position in the Brexit debacle. As is the case with the British media, everything, and I mean everything, is about England and this at a time when every council area in Scotland, apart from Orkney and Shetland (traditionally Lib Dems) voted for the SNP's EU remain position. The Labour Party was completely wiped out with a derisory vote and with no MEPs elected, but again this is not worthy of interest. Now, this is an extraordinary result but evokes no interest, not a whit or a jottle from those south of the border.
The truth of the matter seems to be that in England, nobody cares about Scotland. Down south everyone, as here in this forum, is completely wrapped up in this battle of political personalities and infighting which in England now passes for politics. I imagine that this will be the case here in this forum and elsewhere until once more the Independence issue is raised and then we become for a little while, worthy of attention.

Personally I am ambivalent towards Scotland. If a majority of Scots want independence I think Scotland should have it. But as things stand according to my friends there and the polls, the majority don't. Change that position and off you go. Good luck with it! Sad to see Scotland go.

Al

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Yep.

I don't know, I mean a do do do da da da da, Fall in line NA.........ok......Yep

[mr bajokoses]

Hi,

Yep.

I don't know, I mean a do do do da da da da, Fall in line NA.........ok......Yep

Glad that's been cleared up. One of the more coherent leave arguments.

[Oldjohnw]

I find it interesting that in this whole thread, there is scant if any interest expressed in Scotland's position in the Brexit debacle. As is the case with the British media, everything, and I mean everything, is about England and this at a time when every council area in Scotland, apart from Orkney and Shetland (traditionally Lib Dems) voted for the SNP's EU remain position. The Labour Party was completely wiped out with a derisory vote and with no MEPs elected, but again this is not worthy of interest. Now, this is an extraordinary result but evokes no interest, not a whit or a jottle from those south of the border.
The truth of the matter seems to be that in England, nobody cares about Scotland. Down south everyone, as here in this forum, is completely wrapped up in this battle of political personalities and infighting which in England now passes for politics. I imagine that this will be the case here in this forum and elsewhere until once more the Independence issue is raised and then we become for a little while, worthy of attention.

I'm (not quite) from Scotland but what you say has some truth. But bear in mind that independence was rejected quite significantly, admittedly 5 years ago: much has happened since.

[Cugel]

Goodness knows the truth.
You lot seem to know the truth, or at least you think you know the truth.

What is truth?
It's very very difficult to ascertain it.
Facts are too, when it's a complicated subject full of different ways at looking at "facts" and "truth".

I will here recommend to you the works of Michel Foucault, who makes something of the same points only with an enormous amount of reasoning behind them. And .....

Even ole Michel can see that some truth/fact schemas are of better quality than others. Wot are the means of detecting truth quality? There are several. Some examples (there are many more):

Are the truths and facts well able to predict future events, outcomes or other occurences? Or are they very poor at such prediction? We might contrast scientific truths which generate successful experiments, technologies and observations(their actuality meets their predicted states or design parameters) and certain religious truths, which rarely (never) predict the various futures they propose in any way, shape or form.

Are the truths and facts coherent and cohesive? Do they support one another, exhibiting few self-contradictions , one truth/fact against another of the truth-schema? Those bodies of truth and fact that all hang together in a self-supporting way tend to be much more illuminating and useful than a series of discconnected proposals each one of which seems to contradict the others of the claimed truth-scheme. Compare, let's say, the truths of maths, physics or chemistry with the truths of sociology, economics or psychology.

Are the truths and facts relatively stable, tending to evolve an increased understanding; or are the truths and facts highly volatile, tending to be different this week than last? Compare the evolution of understanding and practice of, say, The Siwss political tradition with that of the USA, as currently evolved into Trump and his tweets.

Are the truths and facts in a truth schema detailed, particular, specific and able to be employed in an analysis of both micro and macro things or events? Or are the truths and facts vague, unspecific, ambiguous or ambivalent, of little use in anlaysing anything much except themselves (i.e. only self-referential tautologies)? Compare, lets say, the propositions and conclusions of those who favour a staying in the EU with those who favour a departure, expressed in this thread in this forum.

Cugel

[bovlomov]

Goodness knows the truth.
You lot seem to know the truth, or at least you think you know the truth.

What is truth?
It's very very difficult to ascertain it.
Facts are too, when it's a complicated subject full of different ways at looking at "facts" and "truth".

I will here recommend to you the works of Michel Foucault, who makes something of the same points only with an enormous amount of reasoning behind them. And .....

<snip>

Yes but blue passports.

[Vorpal]

the leave campaing was illegally funded and posted and boast abject lies.

This is where many folk are wrong, not in the facts, but the funding made no difference to much of the vote IMHO.

Why bother having election campaign funding laws? If you prefer, we can just let anyone and any corporation spend as much on advertising as they want. Then the UK can go the way of the USA, with election campaigns bought & sold by coporate interests.

[georgew]

[quote="mercalia"]..............................................


.............well nothing really is happening in Scotland? They want to remain in the EU or leave the UK, what else is there? All the trouble is in England? SO I think you are being unfair.


"Labour suffered a wipeout in Scotland as the party suffered its worst ever night north of the Border.

On a miserable night in its former stronghold, Labour lost both of its Scottish MEPs and secured less than 10% of the vote to come in fifth behind the SNP, Brexit Party, Lib Dems and Tories."
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/fo ... le-victory


Ermmm........OK.

You've just made my point.

[Cugel]

Millions of us have wanted us Out for donkey's years. Farage and his ilk had never been heard of twenty or thirty years ago. I paid no attention to any of the campaigns. I had no need to as I knew how to vote, and given the opportunity, I would continue to vote Out just like I would have done since I was eighteen years old.

All polls and elections over the previous decade suggest that leaving the EU was a minority interest. Most people didn't care that much.

They were made to care by a concerted - and partly illegal - campaign by billionaire media operators, and advertising. I know everyone thinks it doesn't affect them, but the evidence shows that it does. That's why advertisers advertise. It works.

A fundamental truth in this sea of wordery! All of us are, to a great degree, programmable flesh robots. Even the programmers themselves are flesh robots! We humans have long been infested with a metaphysical parasitic species, manifesting in words, concepts, notions and many other patterns that take root in out big brains and evolve in a fashion that use us genetic evolvers to implement their own memetic evolutionary drifts.

We are stuffed with hubris and so believe we are "in charge" or "making rational decisions" or "reasoning" or doing any of those other things that are supposedly the exclusive abilities of clever humans making informed choices.

Ha!

Cugel

[mr bajokoses]

Millions of us have wanted us Out for donkey's years. Farage and his ilk had never been heard of twenty or thirty years ago. I paid no attention to any of the campaigns. I had no need to as I knew how to vote, and given the opportunity, I would continue to vote Out just like I would have done since I was eighteen years old.

All polls and elections over the previous decade suggest that leaving the EU was a minority interest. Most people didn't care that much.

They were made to care by a concerted - and partly illegal - campaign by billionaire media operators, and advertising. I know everyone thinks it doesn't affect them, but the evidence shows that it does. That's why advertisers advertise. It works.

A fundamental truth is this sea of wordery! All of us are, to a great degree, programmable flesh robots. Even the programmers themselves are flesh robots! We humans have long been infested with a metaphysical parasitic species, manifesting in words, concepts, notions and many other patterns that take root in out big brains and evolve in a fashion that use us genetic evolvers to implement thei rown memtic evolutionary drifts.

We are stuffed with hubris and so believe we are "in charge" or "making rational decisions" or "reasoning" or doing any of those other things that are supposedly the exclusive abilities of clever humans making informed choices.

Ha!

Cugel

Where have you been Cugel? People have been passionately debating our membership of the customs union for decades. You can hardly go anywhere without hearing strong views on the most-favoured-nation rule, or the tariff rate quota. Oh, wait...

[Paulatic]

I find it interesting that in this whole thread, there is scant if any interest expressed in Scotland's position in the Brexit debacle. As is the case with the British media, everything, and I mean everything, is about England and this at a time when every council area in Scotland, apart from Orkney and Shetland (traditionally Lib Dems) voted for the SNP's EU remain position. The Labour Party was completely wiped out with a derisory vote and with no MEPs elected, but again this is not worthy of interest. Now, this is an extraordinary result but evokes no interest, not a whit or a jottle from those south of the border.
The truth of the matter seems to be that in England, nobody cares about Scotland. Down south everyone, as here in this forum, is completely wrapped up in this battle of political personalities and infighting which in England now passes for politics. I imagine that this will be the case here in this forum and elsewhere until once more the Independence issue is raised and then we become for a little while, worthy of attention.

ITV news day after results made no mention at all to the resounding SNP result. BBC showed a bar chart showing SNP ahead. They doctored it so the advantage didn’t look as big as it should have looked. BBC say not all SNP votes were for remain in EU totally ignoring the headlines Vote SNP to remain in EU.
We’ve to remember even BBC Scotland is a branch office of the mighty BBC under the strings of WM Gov. You’ve also to bear in mind most of the contributors to this forum receive their info through England filtered sources. Al gets his information from friends in Scotland but I’d guess that because they are friends they’ll have similar views to Al which are thankfully in a minority up here.
Yes the truth of the matter is exactly like Boris said

A pound spent in Croydon is far more value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde."

. The likes of Windy Miller wants to substitute Strathclyde for Tyneside. On my recent Heb tour everyone I spoke to were extremely worried about Brexit. I can’t emphasise that extremely enough.

[Mick F]

the leave campaing was illegally funded and posted and boast abject lies.

This is where many folk are wrong, not in the facts, but the funding made no difference to much of the vote IMHO.

Why bother having election campaign funding laws? If you prefer, we can just let anyone and any corporation spend as much on advertising as they want. Then the UK can go the way of the USA, with election campaigns bought & sold by coporate interests.

You can spend what you can spend, but if Party A spent all they were allowed and Party B spent nothing, the people who were dyed in the wool B supporters, wouldn't make any difference to them. The would still vote B.

Spending dosh is not the only way to "capture" swing voters, but it helps.

Many many many of us Leave voters would have voted Leave no matter what was spent - or not.

[Psamathe]

Taking back control: letting 125000 (or thereabouts) Conservative Party members decide who will the PM that takes the country forward (or not) into Bexit.

0.25% of the population with an average age of 72 (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-resigns-speech-conservative-members-prime-minister-boris-johnson-tory-a8928426.html gives says 0.25% and https://www.bowgroup.org/news/bow-group-finds-average-age-conservative-party-member-72 says average member age is 72 years (though other sources give a different figure))

Ian