** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Jun 2019, 12:44pm

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:It's pretty obvious leavers think democracy involves ignoring the wishes of others.
Sweeping statement.
Not all leavers think that, not by a long way IMO.

We were given an IN/OUT question in the referendum and Cameron and his motley crew said that parliament would be bound by the result. OUT won though not resoundingly.

If IN had won by a similar narrow majority, would the remain voters consider the leave voters? No doubt in my mind that they would not. The whole thing would have been put to bed and the people like me who never wanted to join in the first place, would continue moaning in the background and be treated like cranks.


Not true. You are deliberatley simplifying mattters? A strong leave vote while remainig in the EU would have given the govt a mandate to demand reform in the EU to reverse some of the idelological EU plans and policys. The time is ripe for this to happen with Merkel about to go, Macron in deep trouble in France and the centre parties losing their dominance and all change in Brussels? Just as a strong remain vote the other way means there is no mandate for a hard Brexit? The referendum was only advisory and did not bind the govt /parliament to any detailed implementation? Farage and his accolates are anti democratic & an obscenity

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syklist
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby syklist » 2 Jun 2019, 12:57pm

al_yrpal wrote:UK food prices arent a problem. The problem for everyone in Britain is the cost of housing. Just too many people and not enough houses.

The lack of houses is the fault of pretty much every post 2WW UK government.

Before we left Utrecht in the Netherlands they started developing a huge area of housing (Leidse Rijn) on what used to be farmland. Mostly houses to buy but some social housing. Wikipedia has some out of date information about the project which gives you an idea of the extent of cooperation between the various layers of government and other bodies. The A2 motorway was widened at the same time and a tunnel built over a section for environmental reasons. New bridges were built to cross the Amsterdamse Rijnkanal as well, not something you just start on a whim and then abandon.

All governments look at projected population changes and then should really plan accordingly. However, in my experience, good planning and a strategic vision is what the UK has always lacked. Also lacking in the UK is a huge dollop of consensus that allows projects to continue even when the political complexions of local, regional and national government changes.
So long and thanks for all the fish...

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 2 Jun 2019, 1:11pm

Hello there, Can the people who apparently are the only ones with all the relevant data point me in the right direction to inspect fully audited accounts for the E.U. for even say the last full six years (Tax Purposes)?
As far as I am able to ascertain such account are not actually available. Such data might enlighten us as to the real advantages that membership offers for nett contributors.
Another point about democracy is that it is often poorly managed, low turn outs show that to be a fact. Make voting compulsory, with the added safeguard of a box for "Not Content For Any Of Them"! MM

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 2 Jun 2019, 1:31pm

merseymouth wrote:Hello there, Can the people who apparently are the only ones with all the relevant data point me in the right direction to inspect fully audited accounts for the E.U. for even say the last full six years (Tax Purposes)?
As far as I am able to ascertain such account are not actually available. Such data might enlighten us as to the real advantages that membership offers for nett contributors.
Another point about democracy is that it is often poorly managed, low turn outs show that to be a fact. Make voting compulsory, with the added safeguard of a box for "Not Content For Any Of Them"! MM

Start here.
https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/

merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 2 Jun 2019, 1:45pm

Thank you Bovlimov, But had they been normal company accounts they would obviously been inadequate!
Bit like Parliament in this country fudges to avoid prosecution? IGICB MM

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 2 Jun 2019, 1:49pm

syklist wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:UK food prices arent a problem. The problem for everyone in Britain is the cost of housing. Just too many people and not enough houses.

The lack of houses is the fault of pretty much every post 2WW UK government.

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that house prices are through the roof in most of the countries I could be bothered to look for data on so it's by no means a uniquely UK problem.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 2 Jun 2019, 2:16pm

mercalia wrote:Not true.

What wasn't?
The idea that I suggested that if remain had won, that they would ignore the leavers?

mercalia wrote:You are deliberatley simplifying mattters?
Yes.

It was suggested that the leavers were ignoring the remainers wishes.
I say it's a sweeping statement, because not all of us are.
Mick F. Cornwall

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Jun 2019, 3:09pm

Mick F wrote:
mercalia wrote:Not true.

What wasn't?
The idea that I suggested that if remain had won, that they would ignore the leavers?

mercalia wrote:You are deliberatley simplifying mattters?
Yes.

It was suggested that the leavers were ignoring the remainers wishes.
I say it's a sweeping statement, because not all of us are.


Yes. As I indicated what would probably happen is that the UK govt would press for reforms to deal with as many of the worries of leavers as possible Since there would be a threat of another refernedum in the future to leave, they could get some traction. And it seems other countries might agree.

Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 2 Jun 2019, 4:25pm

Current polls suggest that remain would now win by a margin of 12%. That's about a factor of three larger than the margin leave won by before people knew what they were voting for. Three years and one General Election (where we can change our minds about what government we have) ago, incidentally.

This is supposed to be a democratic country. I'm more than happy for the EU leave/remain question to go to a vote now we know more about it. As, indeed, would anyone be who cared, even if only a teeny tiny bit, for democracy, of course.

So now the question really is- who believes in democracy and who is scared of it?

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Jun 2019, 4:46pm

Flinders wrote:Current polls suggest that remain would now win by a margin of 12%. That's about a factor of three larger than the margin leave won by before people knew what they were voting for. Three years and one General Election (where we can change our minds about what government we have) ago, incidentally.

This is supposed to be a democratic country. I'm more than happy for the EU leave/remain question to go to a vote now we know more about it. As, indeed, would anyone be who cared, even if only a teeny tiny bit, for democracy, of course.

So now the question really is- who believes in democracy and who is scared of it?



The Tory and Labour parties first of all, followed by Farage and his croonies. A sad state of affairs isnt it. Politicians who dont want another referendum go on about the damage it would do to the trust in the political process and Parliament, who wont be regarded as keeping their word :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Such obtuseness! DO they really believe what they say do your think?

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 2 Jun 2019, 5:00pm

Mick F wrote:
kwackers wrote:It's pretty obvious leavers think democracy involves ignoring the wishes of others.
Sweeping statement.
Not all leavers think that, not by a long way IMO.

We were given an IN/OUT question in the referendum and Cameron and his motley crew said that parliament would be bound by the result. OUT won though not resoundingly.

If IN had won by a similar narrow majority, would the remain voters consider the leave voters? No doubt in my mind that they would not. The whole thing would have been put to bed and the people like me who never wanted to join in the first place, would continue moaning in the background and be treated like cranks.


This is patently ridiculous.

Over decades, the concerns of Euro sceptics have been addressed through opt outs to various legislation including the social chapter, and the limiting of EU influence through non- adoption of the euro and the Schengen system.

No one is suggesting ignoring sceptic views by reversing these.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 2 Jun 2019, 5:54pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:Over decades, the concerns of Euro sceptics have been addressed through opt outs to various legislation including the social chapter, and the limiting of EU influence through non- adoption of the euro and the Schengen system.

..and many other reforms.

The funny thing is, many remain voters - including myself - have been sceptical of the EU project. We have seen the faults, and we have seen the over-ambition. But the scepticism is based on reality.

The anti-EU rhetoric coming from the likes of Johnson and Farage is almost entirely based on fiction.

We know there are many things wrong with the EU, but most of us think it is extremely foolish to trash what we have. In the same way, we know what is wrong with Westminster, but most of us think it would be foolish to abandon representative democracy.

The difference is that the EU has made more progress with reforms than Westminster has.

Mike Sales
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Brexit and the NHS

Postby Mike Sales » 2 Jun 2019, 6:20pm

Remainers have been saying that a trade deal with the USA after Brexit would involve opening the NHS to USA companies.

The US will want business access to the NHS in any post-Brexit trade deal, the US ambassador has said, prompting anger from politicians and campaigners before Donald Trump’s state visit to the UK this week.
Woody Johnson, who is a close friend of the US president, said every area of the UK economy would be up for discussion when the two sides brokered a trade deal.
Asked if the NHS was likely to form part of trade negotiations, Johnson told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show: “I think the entire economy, in a trade deal, all things that are traded would be on the table.” Asked if that specifically meant healthcare, he said: “I would think so.”


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/02/us-wants-access-to-nhs-in-post-brexit-deal-ambassador-to-uk-says

reohn2
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Re: Brexit and the NHS

Postby reohn2 » 2 Jun 2019, 6:30pm

Well those who voted leave can't say they they weren't told,problem being that we'll all suffer as a result of a no deal brexit.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 2 Jun 2019, 6:33pm

bovlomov wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:Over decades, the concerns of Euro sceptics have been addressed through opt outs to various legislation including the social chapter, and the limiting of EU influence through non- adoption of the euro and the Schengen system.

..and many other reforms.

The funny thing is, many remain voters - including myself - have been sceptical of the EU project. We have seen the faults, and we have seen the over-ambition. But the scepticism is based on reality.

The anti-EU rhetoric coming from the likes of Johnson and Farage is almost entirely based on fiction.

We know there are many things wrong with the EU, but most of us think it is extremely foolish to trash what we have. In the same way, we know what is wrong with Westminster, but most of us think it would be foolish to abandon representative democracy.

The difference is that the EU has made more progress with reforms than Westminster has.

A very +1
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I cycle therefore I am.