** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 2212
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 7 Jun 2019, 9:44am

pete75 wrote:So the Brexit party didn't win the Peterborough by election. This wasn't what Mr Farage expected so he slunk out of a back door even before the results were announced. Think what you like about Mrs May but she wasn't one to run away. Advice to Mr Farage - When the going gets tough, the tough get going. They don't creep away.


My own advice to Farago would not be so kind. Suffice it to say that I'll save the mods a job by not posting it explicitly here. :-)

Cugel, imagining looking about for a large sticky milkshake, to donate to a milksop.

User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 2212
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 7 Jun 2019, 9:46am

kwackers wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:US companies might want to try to become providers of some services, but, we will no doubt insist that medical care remains free to everyone. Nothing will change.

Al


If costs increase where's the money going to come from? You witter on endlessly about 'where will we get the money for Corbyns "trotskyist" agenda' but when it comes to something you appear to agree with suddenly getting the money together isn't a problem.
And yet the NHS is a huge cost to the economy and if you believe those who do the sums we can barely afford it now.

Perhaps I'm stupid so do explain to me in simple terms if the costs double - where is that money going to come from?

I'll tell you how I think it'll pan out.
Think about pensions for a moment, notice how the government is now pretty much mandating everyone pay into a private pension, this isn't for the good of the people, this is all about being able to reduce pension costs in the future. Make folk pay for their own pensions now and in the future your old age pensions will no longer be the political football they are today and the ramifications of change are lessened.

Doesn't require much of a leap of imagination to see that something similar could be used to pay for health and if the costs climb and we're in bed with the yanks then I'd put money on it.
A two tier health system already exists, we'll just build on it.


It's astonishing, is it not, how the fan can rejig his common sense, logic-processor and other aspects of reasoning to bolster the conclusion he prefers whilst ignoring the glaringly obvious, nay unavoidable, one?

Cugel

reohn2
Posts: 35313
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jun 2019, 10:17am

al_yrpal wrote:I can remember in the mid 80s the Senior Nurse of the hospital medical unit who my wife took over from left to start a Nursing Agency. Private medicine within the NHS is nothing new at all. The NHS would collapse without agencies and private hospitals. They exist, the havent been banned, and they have been in action like this for at least 40 years. If you hadnt appreciated that you dont know your NHS. Should privatisation be increased? If its good for patients possibly, but it might be more costly, augmenting services often are. What has this got to do with the US? US companies might want to try to become providers of some services, but, we will no doubt insist that medical care remains free to everyone. Nothing will change.

Al

You don't get it do you?
You never have and never will.
The NHS shouldn't be a business it should be a service pure and simple.

EDIT:- just to state the bleedin' obvious,businesses are there primarily to make a profit,whilst services are there to serve the public.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Mike Sales
Posts: 2930
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 7 Jun 2019, 10:26am

reohn2 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:I can remember in the mid 80s the Senior Nurse of the hospital medical unit who my wife took over from left to start a Nursing Agency. Private medicine within the NHS is nothing new at all. The NHS would collapse without agencies and private hospitals. They exist, the havent been banned, and they have been in action like this for at least 40 years. If you hadnt appreciated that you dont know your NHS. Should privatisation be increased? If its good for patients possibly, but it might be more costly, augmenting services often are. What has this got to do with the US? US companies might want t
o try to become providers of some services, but, we will no doubt insist that medical care remains free to everyone. Nothing will change.

Al

You don't get it do you?
You never have and never will.
The NHS shouldn't be a business it should be a service pure and simple.


The NHS is heading for “disaster” because nursing training places are being cut even though record numbers of nurses are set to retire and the population is ageing, the Prime Minister has been warned.


Universities are warning that the government is quietly reneging on its promise to provide 10,000 new nursing degree places, intended to relieve pressure on the NHS.
Student nurses must spend 50% of their degree working under supervision, usually in a hospital. But universities have told Education Guardian that not a single extra nursing training place has been funded or allocated for the future. It would cost £15m over five years to fund training placements for 10,000 new nurses, according to the Council of Deans of Health, the body that represents university faculties of nursing.
Applications to study nursing in the new 2017-18 academic year have slumped by 23% compared with last year, after the abolition of bursaries. The government said last year it would free up £800m and pay for an extra 10,000 places by ending bursaries and shifting student nurses to the standard system of £9,000-a-year tuition fees supported by loans. Angry academics now say this was a hollow promise.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9560929/NHS-heading-for-disaster-over-lack-of-nurses.html

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/fund-extra-nursing-training-places-dropped-universities

The government cuts training places for nurses and so has to bring in nurses from abroad, and NHS Trusts have to pay extra for agency nurses. Profit for the private sector and more cost to the NHS.
Poor economics but it is said to show the NHS has problems!

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 1964
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 7 Jun 2019, 10:37am

reohn2 wrote:The NHS shouldn't be a business it should be a service pure and simple.


This is a great slogan, but it doesn't really reflect the complexities. It's a bit like "Brexit means Brexit"

Where do you draw the line?

Should the NHS do everything with its own employees?

For reductio ad absurdum: build its own hospitals, with it’s own bricklayers with bricks from its own clay pits?

There is a spectrum from that to all the way to doing nothing but provide funds to buy private insurance for the population unable to pay for themselves (Obamacare is close to this).

The NHS is already the most centralised health service in the developed world, so is at the very far end of this spectrum. Personally, I think that’s a good thing, but advocating for no business involvement at all is not remotely credible, or desirable.

It's not black and white.

User avatar
horizon
Posts: 9350
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 7 Jun 2019, 10:41am

Peterborough: a highly significant result.

The Brexit Party should have walked it, even the bookies thought so. The media probably had their headlines already written with a smiling Farage on the front pages (he was at the count but then left). TBP had momentum on their side, an embarrassed Labour party (due to the reason for the by-election), an excellent candidate, the Tories in complete disarray, a huge ground campaign and the glow of the Euro election results. They should have won and caused a sensation. But they didn't.

High water mark again comes to mind.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16954
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 7 Jun 2019, 11:01am

kwackers wrote:It's not a case of advocating, it's already here. Most white collar jobs have 'free' health insurance.

Essentially they subsidise the NHS, and so the slow Americanisation of our system is already underway, at some point a majority will have health insurance and won't be too bothered as subsequent governments reduce the funding and continue privatising.
Eventually just like the poorer half of our society who are "scroungers" because they need help with their low wages so will folk who rely on 'free' health services be seen as some form of lower order...


The Guardian have some data for the numbers of people with private medical insurance https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... health-nhs
It's not as widespread as you seem to indicate. Although I think many white collar jobs provide the *opportunity* to get pivate insurance, either free or low cost, not everyone takes it. I could have had it in a couple of jobs, and never signed up for it.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

reohn2
Posts: 35313
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jun 2019, 11:04am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The NHS shouldn't be a business it should be a service pure and simple.


This is a great slogan, but it doesn't really reflect the complexities. It's a bit like "Brexit means Brexit"

Where do you draw the line?

Should the NHS do everything with its own employees?

For reductio ad absurdum: build its own hospitals, with it’s own bricklayers with bricks from its own clay pits?

There is a spectrum from that to all the way to doing nothing but provide funds to buy private insurance for the population unable to pay for themselves (Obamacare is close to this).

The NHS is already the most centralised health service in the developed world, so is at the very far end of this spectrum. Personally, I think that’s a good thing, but advocating for no business involvement at all is not remotely credible, or desirable.

It's not black and white.

I don't see any reason why the NHS should be beholding to private companies to run it,those companies will take over more and more of it and render it PHS,this will happen if let to.
That said there are some treatments the NHS shouldn't be providing IMO,ie;cosmetic surgery unless under certain circumstances,IVF treatment spring to mind.Whilst at the same time NHS dentists are like gold dust to find.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10371
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 7 Jun 2019, 11:09am

Hi,
pete75 wrote:So the Brexit party didn't win the Peterborough by election. This wasn't what Mr Farage expected so he slunk out of a back door even before the results were announced. Think what you like about Mrs May but she wasn't one to run away. Advice to Mr Farage - When the going gets tough, the tough get going. They don't creep away.

And that 29 % from party going for just two months!
The winner was what 31%.
Labour are very weak as we all know.

So that 29 % are what.........easily led
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

reohn2
Posts: 35313
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jun 2019, 11:16am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
pete75 wrote:So the Brexit party didn't win the Peterborough by election. This wasn't what Mr Farage expected so he slunk out of a back door even before the results were announced. Think what you like about Mrs May but she wasn't one to run away. Advice to Mr Farage - When the going gets tough, the tough get going. They don't creep away.

And that 29 % from party going for just two months!
The winner was what 31%.
Labour are very weak as we all know.

Agreed

So that 29 % are what.........easily led

I would say so yes,and to think the Brexit party are capable of running the country is absurd.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 16954
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 7 Jun 2019, 11:16am

roubaixtuesday wrote:
reohn2 wrote:The NHS shouldn't be a business it should be a service pure and simple.


This is a great slogan, but it doesn't really reflect the complexities. It's a bit like "Brexit means Brexit"

Where do you draw the line?

Should the NHS do everything with its own employees?

It doesn't reflect the complexities, but I understand what reohn2 is saying. In my opinion, companies should not be allowed to directly profit from treating sick people. As for companies making money from testing (blood, swabs, etc.), equipment, medicines, etc. That's fine with some clear controls to prevent conflicts of interest, control prices, and ensure investment in research.

The basic problem comes down to the fact that when a service is being provided, the primary way to cut cost is to reduce staff or the service. Profit and care are therefore always in opposition. There are various ways of addressing this. But the elimination of profit takes out one driver of poor provision of service.

My opinion about this matter comes from years of experience dealing with for-profit companies in the US health care system, plus subsequent experience wiht the British and Norwegian systems.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 10371
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 7 Jun 2019, 11:23am

Hi,
Cugel wrote:
pete75 wrote:So the Brexit party didn't win the Peterborough by election. This wasn't what Mr Farage expected so he slunk out of a back door even before the results were announced. Think what you like about Mrs May but she wasn't one to run away. Advice to Mr Farage - When the going gets tough, the tough get going. They don't creep away.


My own advice to Farago would not be so kind. Suffice it to say that I'll save the mods a job by not posting it explicitly here. :-)

Cugel, imagining looking about for a large sticky milkshake, to donate to a milksop.

Ha ha, Cugelitious, insults without using the words.
Why the need to insult a born loser.......what are you really afraid of, aliens :)
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

kwackers
Posts: 13306
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 7 Jun 2019, 11:31am

Vorpal wrote:The Guardian have some data for the numbers of people with private medical insurance https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... health-nhs
It's not as widespread as you seem to indicate. Although I think many white collar jobs provide the *opportunity* to get pivate insurance, either free or low cost, not everyone takes it. I could have had it in a couple of jobs, and never signed up for it.

It's been flat for a number of decades - but I already knew that. ;)

I was curious whether anyone would pick up on it, typically none of the leavers did.
Not that I'd claim they never do any research...

It doesn't detract from the message though, at the moment most folk are happy with the NHS so they tend to use it and not worry. Neither has the government made any effort yet to encourage private health uptake, but that could change overnight.
So my take so far is that it's good news, but that doesn't mean we should blindly assume we won't sleepwalk into an American system - in fact I think in the long term that's very likely.

FWIW (and for full disclosure) I do have private health insurance, it's a freebie and requires more effort on my part not to take it. Having said that I've never used it, whenever I've made use of the NHS I've never felt the need to 'play the card' - that might change if a consultant suggested to me that there was some benefit in doing so.

I do need to start wearing a fitness tracker though - the health insurance I have gives big discounts off bicycles and running shoes in return for points that you earn by doing fitness stuff - and given the amount of running and cycling I do it's well worth it.
Shame I'm so lazy when it comes to actually doing form filling stuff like that...

reohn2
Posts: 35313
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jun 2019, 11:45am

kwackers wrote:.... at the moment most folk are happy with the NHS so they tend to use it and not worry. Neither has the government made any effort yet to encourage private health uptake..........

NHS Dentistry is increasingly hard to find and as a result the people on low income neglect it until absolutely necessary because they can't afford to go private,resulting in poor healthcare,even in children.
Mrs R2 due to the medication she's on has to have her ears cleaned of wax regularly,an NHS appointment has a waiting time of 3months due to shortage of staff(we've been informed by the nursing staff),so we pay £50 for private healthcare.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

merseymouth
Posts: 886
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 7 Jun 2019, 11:58am

Hello there, Well, the combination of NHS & PPI gives you what?
Take the replacement Royal Hospital in Liverpool. Already long overdue, with no completion date in sight! Worse, the construction is quite shoddy, a real botch up. My insider told me that the foundations are not up to the correct specification, which means that the 11th floor operating equipment would seriously overload the margins, with cracks already evident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That philanthropic group Carrillion were such good project controllers, all bills paid on time, me thinks not.
Because the replacement hospital was due maintenance was not contemplated, result is the existing hospital is collapsing around staff's ears, with major equipment failing! Not nice if your life depends on it?
Flag Days in support of our hospitals may have to reappear??? IGICB MM