** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[al_yrpal]

The NHS stutters. Wifes sudden loss of mobility and severe back pain. The 4th GP we saw actually listened. Although they wouldnt pay for a scan, I did. Result ... she has three fractured vertebrae and severe Osteoporosis ! GP saw her over memory and behavior problems. 4th GP listened and got us a Neurologist appt... result, diagnosed with Parkinsons. After specialist nurse saw her new Neurological appointment and Lewy Body dementia possible diagnosis! Moved to Devon asked for Neurological appt....result 6 to 7 months wait,

What do I think of her treatment...four letter word!

Al

[mjr]

[...] party going for just two months! [...]

That is an oft-repeated fib (edit: so I don't blame anyone for repeating it - the BBC have said it often enough, for example). The Brexit Party formally started in November 2018 (7 months ago now) and I suspect racist Islamophobe potato advocate Catherine Blaiklock started building the party before she quit UKIP, probably during the Bolton-Batten UKIP leadership battle in early 2018.

The Brexit Party Limited only registered as a political party with the Electoral Commission two months ago, shortly before the local elections, but why would they have done so before?

[mjr]

The NHS stutters. Wifes sudden loss of mobility and severe back pain. The 4th GP we saw actually listened. Although they wouldnt pay for a scan, I did. Result ... she has three fractured vertebrae and severe Osteoporosis ! GP saw her over memory and behavior problems. 4th GP listened and got us a Neurologist appt... result, diagnosed with Parkinsons. After specialist nurse saw her new Neurological appointment and Lewy Body dementia possible diagnosis! Moved to Devon asked for Neurological appt....result 6 to 7 months wait,

What do I think of her treatment...four letter word!

So far, so understandable. What's not understandable is how anyone would leap from that to believing that letting more profit-making companies extract funding from the system under a post-Brexit backs-to-the-wall trade deal with the USA would improve any of the above.

[reohn2]

...Flag Days in support of our hospitals may have to reappear??? IGICB MM

Personally I'd prefer paying more taxes,and what I'd really like is for those taxes to be spent responsibly,something that's sadly lacking today.
Carillion is a classic example of the private sector failing,bluffing and abusing their way through then declaring themselves bankrupt leaving untold misery and debt in their wake,it's a national scandal overseen by governments that are a national scandal.

[reohn2]

The NHS stutters. Wifes sudden loss of mobility and severe back pain. The 4th GP we saw actually listened. Although they wouldnt pay for a scan, I did. Result ... she has three fractured vertebrae and severe Osteoporosis ! GP saw her over memory and behavior problems. 4th GP listened and got us a Neurologist appt... result, diagnosed with Parkinsons. After specialist nurse saw her new Neurological appointment and Lewy Body dementia possible diagnosis! Moved to Devon asked for Neurological appt....result 6 to 7 months wait,

What do I think of her treatment...four letter word!

Al

Now imagine if you couldn't afford the scan.

[mjr]

I would say so yes,and to think the Brexit party are capable of running the country is absurd.

Yes, we've seen what happened when BXP's parent UKIP got any power at councils. Bottom line is that very few kippers got re-elected.

However, if the BXP get a sniff of power at national level, there are two big problems: firstly, the havoc they inflict will be nationwide and much more wide-ranging; and secondly, if we do actually leave the EU and possibly other things like the Council of Europe as BXPers demand, there may be few limits on their powers - it would not be much of a tweak to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act to lengthen the term or other shenanigans because BXP oppose letting people vote again to see if they've changed their minds!

[reohn2]

I would say so yes,and to think the Brexit party are capable of running the country is absurd.

Yes, we've seen what happened when BXP's parent UKIP got any power at councils. Bottom line is that very few kippers got re-elected.

However, if the BXP get a sniff of power at national level, there are two big problems: firstly, the havoc they inflict will be nationwide and much more wide-ranging; and secondly, if we do actually leave the EU and possibly other things like the Council of Europe as BXPers demand, there may be few limits on their powers - it would not be much of a tweak to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act to lengthen the term or other shenanigans because BXP oppose letting people vote again to see if they've changed their minds!

You could very well be right in the event of them gaining power.
IMO anyone who thinks these people would good for the UK would have the shock of their lives once they were elected to any kind of power.

[al_yrpal]

The NHS stutters. Wifes sudden loss of mobility and severe back pain. The 4th GP we saw actually listened. Although they wouldnt pay for a scan, I did. Result ... she has three fractured vertebrae and severe Osteoporosis ! GP saw her over memory and behavior problems. 4th GP listened and got us a Neurologist appt... result, diagnosed with Parkinsons. After specialist nurse saw her new Neurological appointment and Lewy Body dementia possible diagnosis! Moved to Devon asked for Neurological appt....result 6 to 7 months wait,

What do I think of her treatment...four letter word!

So far, so understandable. What's not understandable is how anyone would leap from that to believing that letting more profit-making companies extract funding from the system under a post-Brexit backs-to-the-wall trade deal with the USA would improve any of the above.

Your interpretation is cynical, typical of Remain, mine isnt. Nothing wrong with profit, its the driving force of our society. Just look at the Soviet Union, China and North Korea to appreciate the alternative. Would it be back to the wall, I doubt it.

Al

[mr bajokoses]

And that 29 % from party going for just two months!
The winner was what 31%.
Labour are very weak as we all know.

So that 29 % are what.........easily led

We often hear about how new the Brexit Party is, but it's just another lie. As Carole Cadwalladr eloquently put it, BXP is just the latest host body for Farage, the tapeworm of UK politics, having discarded the husk of UKIP.

He had his big chance in Peterborough, and blew it. I wonder if Farage will respect the 'will of the people' and slink away to obscurity?

[kwackers]

Nothing wrong with profit, its the driving force of our society.

Al

"Nothing"? Sure about that?

I'm pretty sure the financial crash was a good demonstration of exactly what was wrong with profit.

Profit is fine if it provides a service that justifies it.
Worth thinking about when you and your wife are simply another mechanism for making money.

Also worth thinking about the damage that's done to the planet and our environment in the name of profit.

[Cugel]

The NHS shouldn't be a business it should be a service pure and simple.

This is a great slogan, but it doesn't really reflect the complexities. It's a bit like "Brexit means Brexit"

Where do you draw the line?

Should the NHS do everything with its own employees?

For reductio ad absurdum: build its own hospitals, with it’s own bricklayers with bricks from its own clay pits?

There is a spectrum from that to all the way to doing nothing but provide funds to buy private insurance for the population unable to pay for themselves (Obamacare is close to this).

The NHS is already the most centralised health service in the developed world, so is at the very far end of this spectrum. Personally, I think that’s a good thing, but advocating for no business involvement at all is not remotely credible, or desirable.

It's not black and white.

I believe Mr 2 was refering to the core service of the NHS - provison of health care to prevent, cure or alleviate illness. This is what he (and I, perhaps you) believe should be preserved from being reduced to nothing more than a business practice. It doesn't mean that doctors have to dig in the claypits for the brick constituents!

Yes there is a question about degree, as you mention. How far should the public health service ethic be preserved as the driving motive in organising and running what aspects of the NHS; where can the profit motive usefully step in without corrupting the public health care service ethic? A related question is (and has been since the outset of the NHS): to what degree should private health care be allowed as a parallel consumer of NHS resources, particularly staff and their expertise?

The reason for preserving the core service of the NHS as a public service is to serve the notion of equal health care for all at the point of need. Any private provision of health care as a business automatically makes health care provision unequal, as those who can afford to pay get better or priority service compared to those who can't afford to pay. Moreover, if a doctor/nurse can operate in both the public and the private sphere, the private sphere will offer them an advantage as it can pay the doctor or nurse more than the standard rate from the public service.

In practice we've allowed something of a fudge to solve this conundrum. Some well-off pateients have a more than equal opportunity to get best health care without delay. As the public service side of health provision is starved more and more of funds - as the service becomes of an increasingly reduced quality compared to private health care - inequality of health care provision increases markedly. That drives the argument that private health care is somehow "better".

But, as wih all such matters, what seems better and what seems worse is not driven by the fundamental economical "laws" but by political and moral choices. There's better health care in Cuba than anywhere, despite it being all public service. There are other (non-monetary) costs to achieving that but it shows that private health care is not automatically better or "more efficient" - except at making profit, by the usual methods of capitalism, including least outlay for most profit but also provison of entirely spurious "services" that merely transfer the value of the patient's house from the patient to the health care business in exchange for nothing more than a fashionable consumption of an unnecessary procedure or the issue of some highly addictive drugs. (See Yankland for details).

Cugel

[Cugel]

Hi,

So the Brexit party didn't win the Peterborough by election. This wasn't what Mr Farage expected so he slunk out of a back door even before the results were announced. Think what you like about Mrs May but she wasn't one to run away. Advice to Mr Farage - When the going gets tough, the tough get going. They don't creep away.

My own advice to Farago would not be so kind. Suffice it to say that I'll save the mods a job by not posting it explicitly here.

Cugel, imagining looking about for a large sticky milkshake, to donate to a milksop.

Ha ha, Cugelitious, insults without using the words.
Why the need to insult a born loser.......what are you really afraid of, aliens

I'm afraid of humans like you and Farage. Need I explain why? You wouldn't understand anyway.

Cugel

[Cugel]

The NHS stutters. Wifes sudden loss of mobility and severe back pain. The 4th GP we saw actually listened. Although they wouldnt pay for a scan, I did. Result ... she has three fractured vertebrae and severe Osteoporosis ! GP saw her over memory and behavior problems. 4th GP listened and got us a Neurologist appt... result, diagnosed with Parkinsons. After specialist nurse saw her new Neurological appointment and Lewy Body dementia possible diagnosis! Moved to Devon asked for Neurological appt....result 6 to 7 months wait,

What do I think of her treatment...four letter word!

So far, so understandable. What's not understandable is how anyone would leap from that to believing that letting more profit-making companies extract funding from the system under a post-Brexit backs-to-the-wall trade deal with the USA would improve any of the above.

Your interpretation is cynical, typical of Remain, mine isnt. Nothing wrong with profit, its the driving force of our society. Just look at the Soviet Union, China and North Korea to appreciate the alternative. Would it be back to the wall, I doubt it.

Al

I wondered when you've cough this one up. Those failures you mention are not the only alternative. Two others spring to mind: the NHS itself; Cuba.

It's surprising that you can't see the dangers in a health care that's purely for profit. It's not so surprising that you think profit-making is the only legitimate motive for humans to achieve things, as this has been drummed into us since The East India Company set that standard. But it is untrue, as you yourself know from your good works motivated by nothing to do with making a profit.

Wake up, man!

Cugel

[al_yrpal]

I really don't know what you are ranting about, sorry.. The NHS doesn't make a profit, but profits in a roundabout way funds it, and your pension too. Nothing wrong with profits.

Al

[mjr]

The NHS stutters. Wifes sudden loss of mobility and severe back pain. The 4th GP we saw actually listened. Although they wouldnt pay for a scan, I did. Result ... she has three fractured vertebrae and severe Osteoporosis ! GP saw her over memory and behavior problems. 4th GP listened and got us a Neurologist appt... result, diagnosed with Parkinsons. After specialist nurse saw her new Neurological appointment and Lewy Body dementia possible diagnosis! Moved to Devon asked for Neurological appt....result 6 to 7 months wait,

What do I think of her treatment...four letter word!

So far, so understandable. What's not understandable is how anyone would leap from that to believing that letting more profit-making companies extract funding from the system under a post-Brexit backs-to-the-wall trade deal with the USA would improve any of the above.

Your interpretation is cynical, typical of Remain, mine isnt. Nothing wrong with profit, its the driving force of our society. Just look at the Soviet Union, China and North Korea to appreciate the alternative. Would it be back to the wall, I doubt it.

My interpretation is pragmatic and realist, typical of Remain, whereas your response is idealist right-wing fantasy and in denial about key facts, typical of Leave! While I'd agree that there's nothing wrong with profit or surplus or whatever you want to call it as such, how would limited NHS funding be improved by handing some of it over to private providers and insurers as profits?

Just look at the health systems of the USA or to lesser extents Chile and Switzerland to appreciate what we've got - although Switzerland does at least get pretty good life expectancy for the higher price they pay!