** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 9 Jun 2019, 7:56am

mjr wrote:
Mick F wrote:
Mick F wrote:I never said that things will get better.
I never said that things would get worse either.

It's you lot who said would things that would get worse, not me.

Errr, you seem to be arguing with yourself, did you know?
I'm not arguing with anyone, least of all myself.

When we leave the EU, things will be different. Not better or worse, just different, and I'm looking forward to it. Sooner the better please.
Mick F. Cornwall

Hobbs1951
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 9 Jun 2019, 8:20am

661-Pete wrote:
windmiller wrote:A somewhat hysterical opinion not without facts railing against those who actually wanted to get the UK out of this mess as quickly as possible. A shame that most of Parliament won't except the democratic will of the people and would rather ruin this country than save it from the EU mafia and its' quisling cronies that infest the establishment and beyond.
If WM sees fit to compare the EU organisation to a Nazi puppet, why should we hold back from calling hard Brex**iteers, "fascists"? Because many of them assuredly are, just that. Fascists.


Whilst not disagreeing with your sentiment I should point out that Nazis were National Socialists not Fascists: there is a difference.

And with reference to WMs will of the people refrain - I am sick of hearing this from the supporters of brexit - they are not interested in democracy, not one of them has shown any regard for those who voted remain - who have effectively been disenfranchised (no democracy for them).

John.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Hobbs1951 » 9 Jun 2019, 8:22am

Hobbs1951 wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
windmiller wrote:A somewhat hysterical opinion not without facts railing against those who actually wanted to get the UK out of this mess as quickly as possible. A shame that most of Parliament won't except the democratic will of the people and would rather ruin this country than save it from the EU mafia and its' quisling cronies that infest the establishment and beyond.
If WM sees fit to compare the EU organisation to a Nazi puppet, why should we hold back from calling hard Brex**iteers, "fascists"? Because many of them assuredly are, just that. Fascists.


Whilst not disagreeing with your sentiment I should point out that Nazis were National Socialists not Fascists: there is a difference.

And with reference to WMs will of the people refrain - I am sick of hearing this from the supporters of brexit - they are not interested in democracy, not one of them has shown any regard for those who voted remain - who have effectively been disenfranchised (no democracy for them).

And how anyone could suggest leaving the EU would not be bad for the UK economy...we have yet to leave and the vote has already had a massive negative effect on the UK economy.

John.

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 9 Jun 2019, 8:42am

Hobbs1951 wrote:Whilst not disagreeing with your sentiment I should point out that Nazis were National Socialists not Fascists: there is a difference.
Thanks - but I don't need any lessons on the Nazis, my family suffered grievously enough under their policies.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 9 Jun 2019, 8:54am

661-Pete wrote:
Hobbs1951 wrote:Whilst not disagreeing with your sentiment I should point out that Nazis were National Socialists not Fascists: there is a difference.
Thanks - but I don't need any lessons on the Nazis, my family suffered grievously enough under their policies.


Hob was right, though, concerning the definitions and associated parameters for judging what type of politics is involved. There is a significant difference between National Socialism a la Adolf and the fascist mode as found in the more bog-standard totalitarians once found in Italy (the source of fascism) Spain, Chile et al.

Cugel

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 9 Jun 2019, 9:00am

Hobbs1951 wrote:(snip)

And with reference to WMs will of the people refrain - I am sick of hearing this from the supporters of brexit - they are not interested in democracy, not one of them has shown any regard for those who voted remain - who have effectively been disenfranchised (no democracy for them).

John.


As I understand it, there was a significant portion of the population who didn't vote in the referendum. There seems to have been an assumption that they therefore don't count when it comes to weighing "the will of the people".

But they are all citizens too, whether they voted or not. Various political theorists observing the democratic mode have pointed out that non-voters are so usually because they're satisfied with the status quo. (See Schumacher et al).

From this point of view, the leave voters are nowhere near a majority of citizens. In no way that's honest can their vote be saisd to represent the "will of the people".

Anyroadup, the real will involved was the will of the nationalist loon propagandists of various ilks, newspap editors and similar Svengalis in charge of the mass media bullhorn. Why pretend otherwise?

Cugel

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 9 Jun 2019, 9:08am

Cugel wrote:Hob was right, though, concerning the definitions and associated parameters for judging what type of politics is involved. There is a significant difference between National Socialism a la Adolf and the fascist mode as found in the more bog-standard totalitarians once found in Italy (the source of fascism) Spain, Chile et al.
What I meant was - although I'm not bothered about being patronised on most topics - on this one I draw the line. If people don't mind, please... I have read several books on the subect - although Don Quixote seems to think I haven't.
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 9 Jun 2019, 9:10am

Cugel wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Hobbs1951 wrote:Whilst not disagreeing with your sentiment I should point out that Nazis were National Socialists not Fascists: there is a difference.
Thanks - but I don't need any lessons on the Nazis, my family suffered grievously enough under their policies.


Hob was right, though, concerning the definitions and associated parameters for judging what type of politics is involved. There is a significant difference between National Socialism a la Adolf and the fascist mode as found in the more bog-standard totalitarians once found in Italy (the source of fascism) Spain, Chile et al.

Cugel

How does National Socialism differing from fascism as found in Italy or Spain prevent it from being fascism? As the Encyclopedia Britannica says "Although fascist parties and movements differed significantly from one another, they had many characteristics in common, including extreme militaristic nationalism, contempt for electoral democracy and political and cultural liberalism, a belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites, and the desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation." The same article describes the National Socialists as fascists.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 9 Jun 2019, 9:14am

Cugel wrote:
Hobbs1951 wrote:(snip)

And with reference to WMs will of the people refrain - I am sick of hearing this from the supporters of brexit - they are not interested in democracy, not one of them has shown any regard for those who voted remain - who have effectively been disenfranchised (no democracy for them).

John.


As I understand it, there was a significant portion of the population who didn't vote in the referendum. There seems to have been an assumption that they therefore don't count when it comes to weighing "the will of the people".

But they are all citizens too, whether they voted or not. Various political theorists observing the democratic mode have pointed out that non-voters are so usually because they're satisfied with the status quo. (See Schumacher et al).

From this point of view, the leave voters are nowhere near a majority of citizens. In no way that's honest can their vote be saisd to represent the "will of the people".

Anyroadup, the real will involved was the will of the nationalist loon propagandists of various ilks, newspap editors and similar Svengalis in charge of the mass media bullhorn. Why pretend otherwise?

Cugel



More succinctly it's the will of some of the people.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jun 2019, 9:18am

Hobbs1951 wrote:
And with reference to WMs will of the people refrain - I am sick of hearing this from the supporters of brexit - they are not interested in democracy, not one of them has shown any regard for those who voted remain - who have effectively been disenfranchised (no democracy for them).

John.

Neither are they interested in the diabolical lies and the proven illegal funding the Brexit campaign,now we have the case against BoJo's obvious lies thrown out of court.As we all watch UK industry being dismantled before our eyes and we aren't out yet
There's only demockracy left in modern day UK
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 9 Jun 2019, 9:25am

I said it before, that I didn't listen to any of the clap-trap from either side.
We don't have a telly and don't buy newspapers.

I made my mind up 50years ago about the EU and all it's predecessor names. I suppose I was happy with a common market agreement, but ever closer union and being in European Union is way too far in my opinion ........... and has been all along despite all the clap-trap (which I paid no attention to at all).
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jun 2019, 9:26am

Mick F wrote:........When we leave the EU, things will be different. Not better or worse, just different, and I'm looking forward to it. Sooner the better please.

Mick it gives me no pleasure typing this but you've posted some silly comments on this thread but that takes the biscuit.If you can't now see what difference is coming you're as blind as a bat!
It's plainly ridiculous to say that things are only going to be different with what's happened to industry in the past 12months alone and we haven't left yet!
What will it take to convince you that the UK is going down the pan?
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 9 Jun 2019, 9:29am

The UK has been "going down the pan" for years and years. It wasn't a cliff-edge the day after the referendum. It's been on a downward slope for a long long time.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jun 2019, 9:30am

Cugel wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
Hobbs1951 wrote:Whilst not disagreeing with your sentiment I should point out that Nazis were National Socialists not Fascists: there is a difference.
Thanks - but I don't need any lessons on the Nazis, my family suffered grievously enough under their policies.


Hob was right, though, concerning the definitions and associated parameters for judging what type of politics is involved. There is a significant difference between National Socialism a la Adolf and the fascist mode as found in the more bog-standard totalitarians once found in Italy (the source of fascism) Spain, Chile et al.

Cugel

But the effect was the same ie; if your not with them then you're against them and you'll crushed under their jackboot.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 9 Jun 2019, 9:31am

Hi all, Amazing how anyone who wants to leave the E.U. is classed as either Extreme Right Wing or worse! Can't really why it should happen?
With the extreme reluctance on the part of the E.U. to consider change & improvement leave is the only sensible choice.
I see the E.U. in the same way that I view the ruddy great cruise ships in Venice, a behemoth crushing sensible discussion. Lots of rules & regulations that some members comply with, whilst others just carry on with their own agenda, not really playing by the rules is it old bean?
I await the usual name calling. IGICB MM