** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[Bonefishblues]

I heard the Dutch PM on R4 this morning. He's our best bud and to quote JRM, was indicating thin gruel ahead with our 'renegotiation'.

OTOH he was strongly indicating that the relentless march of the EU into every aspect of national policy was over...
<snipped>

One of the strengths of the EU is that it does the thinking so that national governments don't have to.

Trade deals with the rest of the world - taken care of.
Systems put in place to ensure a level playing field in tradiing relationships between EU member countries - taken care of.
Energy security, a constant battle but the EU is working on things like ACER to ensure, among other things, reliable supplies of energy for EU/EEA member states.

The weakness of this system is that it can be interpreted as "the relentless march of the EU into every aspect of national policy" and national governments can easily (albeit foolishly if you take Brexit as an example) turn round an say the EU is an interfering and malevolent entity..

I think the point is that there's a 'sweet spot' for the above, and its undoubted benefits.

[merseymouth]

Hi all, Nice to see that the E.U. i back to threatening Switzerland again? The Swiss access to the european market is controlled by a system of "Equivalence", which is due to expire at the end of July.
The renewal is now dependant on the Swiss agreeing to roll over and give the E.U. carte blanche on all issues, which the E.U. says will be exactly what the UK would have to agree to accept, hari kari!
So clearly the E.U. is now operating as a undemocratic protection racket, with an offer you can't refuse? If the E.U. has their way the UK will find itself like Jimmy Hoffa! Clearly "Concrete Proposals" on their terms! . TTFN MM

[mjr]

The renewal is now dependant on the Swiss agreeing to roll over and give the E.U. carte blanche on all issues, which the E.U. says will be exactly what the UK would have to agree to accept, hari kari

Project Fear rumbles on, fuelled by fake news and spin. Here's how it's reported by Swiss media: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-eu-re ... s/45039262

[merseymouth]

Hi MJR, Well that link doesn't offer much in the way of confidence building? Here we are mid June, yet the Swiss agreement expires end of July???
Brinkmanship at it's worst! the facts as reported in the Daily Torygraph aren't a distortion or fake news (very Trump style), so the dark forces of E.U. negotiations grinds extremely small & slow!
As for available information who can anyone trust, the web is crammed full of garbage & outdated rubbish.
We just have to accept the situation we get dropped into by self seeking shysters & rogues. Any chance of a moral majority taking control? MM

[mjr]

Hi MJR, Well that link doesn't offer much in the way of confidence building? Here we are mid June, yet the Swiss agreement expires end of July???

You missed the bit in it about the extension expected to be proposed this week?

Brinkmanship at it's worst! the facts as reported in the Daily Torygraph aren't a distortion or fake news (very Trump style), so the dark forces of E.U. negotiations grinds extremely small & slow!
As for available information who can anyone trust, the web is crammed full of garbage & outdated rubbish.

Who's doing brinkmanship? The EU thought they completed negotiations last year, yet now Switzerland comes back seeking clarifications and possibly changes - all sounds horribly familiar... and if it's like the Brexit farce, then it won't be the EU that ran the clock down.

I humbly suggest that the Swiss public broadcaster may be more trustworthy on this matter than Boris Johnson's biggest-paying employer. I do not share your confidence in the DT reporting facts and not distorting or faking!

We just have to accept the situation we get dropped into by self seeking shysters & rogues. Any chance of a moral majority taking control? MM

It doesn't look like it. The rich elite controlling the BXP look like effectively taking control of the Conservatives soon and thereby the government.

[661-Pete]

Hi all, Nice to see that the E.U. i back to threatening Switzerland again? The Swiss access to the european market is controlled by a system of "Equivalence", which is due to expire at the end of July.
The renewal is now dependant on the Swiss agreeing to roll over and give the E.U. carte blanche on all issues

If Switzerland were to drop their historically dogged nationalism and independence and see some way towards joining the EU - after all they are completely surrounded by EU members - none of this would happen. But that's the Swiss for you! Not our problem (although I don't think I'd care to go and live in Switzerland...)

... which the E.U. says will be exactly what the UK would have to agree to accept, hari kari!
So clearly the E.U. is now operating as a undemocratic protection racket, with an offer you can't refuse? If the E.U. has their way the UK will find itself like Jimmy Hoffa! Clearly "Concrete Proposals" on their terms! . TTFN MM

This bit of nonsense, of course, would only happen if Britain leaves the EU. So the solution is clear! And no-deal Brex**it won't be any better, before someone pipes up...

[merseymouth]

Hi there, So the answer to all of Switzerland's problems will be provided by them Kow Towing to the wishes of the E.U., say sod it to their centuries of independence and neutrality? I bet the Swiss would get cheesed off with a future like that! MM

[kwackers]

Hi there, So the answer to all of Switzerland's problems will be provided by them Kow Towing to the wishes of the E.U., say sod it to their centuries of independence and neutrality? I bet the Swiss would get cheesed off with a future like that! MM

They can always drop back to whatever their previous trade agreements where.
Or they could apply for full membership and have some say.

Nothing in life is free.
Wait until you see what bigger countries demand in return for your trade! I'm sure Trump will do them a good deal, he's done a few corking deals up to now with the Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and the various other trade deals he's tearing up to get better deals for them there yanks.

It's a minefield out there. Pick your friends wisely.

[reohn2]

Liam Fox has been quiet lately

[Bonefishblues]

Liam Fox has been quiet lately

My dog just rolled in his poo.

[661-Pete]

Hi there, So the answer to all of Switzerland's problems will be provided by them Kow Towing to the wishes of the E.U., say sod it to their centuries of independence and neutrality? I bet the Swiss would get cheesed off with a future like that! MM

Would that be, Gruyère'd, or Emmental'd off? [sorry, couldn't resist!]

Seriously - yes I understand how the Swiss cherish their independence, and respect it, though I'm no fan of them for it. But there's a price to pay. They've been kowtowing to the EU's wishes all along anyway - they couldn't exist without it. Joining the EU would simplify things for them lots: whether the EU wishes it or not, they wouldn't be forced into it - anymore than Britain is being forced not to Brex**it.

But the Swiss don't want to join. Tough. Face up to the problems then. The EU don't impose them out of malice, but out of practicability.

[reohn2]

Liam Fox has been quiet lately

My dog just rolled in his poo.

Yep I think that about sums it up

Worth another listen... https://youtu.be/A6c6eUeoa9Q

[merseymouth]

Hi Guys, Maybe Junker, Tusk & Barnier should settle down alongside Jimmy Hoffa, he liked hard-ball. I'm sure Trump knows where Jimmy is right now!
But maybe the E.U. will be busy having to mediate between Germany & Austria over their road charging problems? That issue is going to be mirrored between Merseyside & Cheshire over the Mersey Tunnel Charges. . IGICB MM

[PDQ Mobile]

Hi there, So the answer to all of Switzerland's problems will be provided by them Kow Towing to the wishes of the E.U., say sod it to their centuries of independence and neutrality? I bet the Swiss would get cheesed off with a future like that! MM

Switzerland has over 40 years of negotiation with the EU behind it.
In some respects it is more of a member of the EU than the UK. A member of Schengen and the EEA.

Switzerland is desperate to allow it's stock markets to maintain equal status with those in the EU.
Yet it maintains within it's federal structure some significant tax havens. That is not in the EU's or the little man's interest and too much tax revenue is lost because of it. Think Boots, Glencore, ABB. and many more.
So the negotiations are difficult.

IMHO the Swiss will never leave their present basic and long negotiated arrangements with Brussels though Farage, liar and charlatan that he is, has promoted such a view.
And he has portrayed Switzerland as successful because of it's non EU status, though that is not strictly true.

The situation is complex for both sides not least because of the strength of the Swiss Franc since around 2009.
Swiss Unions fight against lower wages driven by EU workers.
Not dissimilar to the situation in the UK but the Swiss unlike the UK see the benefits too.
Indeed in spite of (or maybe because of!) the strong currency their economy remains strong and rather buoyant. Our foolish politicians take a simplistic view that weak currency equals competitiveness, not borne out now. The Swiss invest in energy efficiency and infrastructure, work efficiently and maintain their competitive edge.

And additional edit.
A view of our politics from Switz.
https://www.nzz.ch/meinung/premierminis ... ld.1490531
The rather conservative NZZ led with a commentary about Johnson.
German but easily and reasonably translatable by google or similar.
As a flavour though a quick quote from the same :-
"And all the parliamentarians who had recently dismissed with horror the possibility of a prime minister Boris Johnson suddenly pretend that they themselves believe in the mirraculous transformation of a notorious liar, fraudster and ignorant into a statesman,(who) will lead the country out of the Brexit crisis. Shameless and easier to see, political spin has rarely been before."

I could have translated it a bit better (I be but a simple farmer) but couldn't be bothered.
The gist is there.

[Cunobelin]

Hi there, So the answer to all of Switzerland's problems will be provided by them Kow Towing to the wishes of the E.U., say sod it to their centuries of independence and neutrality? I bet the Swiss would get cheesed off with a future like that! MM

They can always drop back to whatever their previous trade agreements where.
Or they could apply for full membership and have some say.

Nothing in life is free.
Wait until you see what bigger countries demand in return for your trade! I'm sure Trump will do them a good deal, he's done a few corking deals up to now with the Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and the various other trade deals he's tearing up to get better deals for them there yanks.

It's a minefield out there. Pick your friends wisely.

The impression I get is that Trump is not actually interested in the trade deals per se.

It is more about Americanisation and asset stripping.

Take the example that they will (allegedly) not negotiate unless the NHS is part of the deal