** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 6 Jul 2019, 4:12pm

kwackers wrote:
andrec wrote:They both matter but the winners get to decide what happens. Losers don't. I think the difference with the 2016 people's vote is that the losers were mainly people who are used to being taken notice of in our society, used to getting their way a lot of the time, being influential, and often used to having others obey them in the course of their daily lives as employers, MPs, managers, supervisors, teachers, council officers etc.

They are finding it hard to cope with a majority going against their wishes, especially a majority they believe to be socially, educationally and culturally inferior. For a minority of these people this causes them to sound angry, confused and contemptuous as they vent their frustration at being ignored. Richard Dawkins is good example of this phenomenon.

That's just nonsense.

It's nothing like that and all to do with simple incredulousness at how easily you were taken in.
You fell for it hook line and sinker and I'm personally astonished by how folk were played - I seriously thought people were better than that but then I forgot about the falling IQ of the mob which given it's a basic tenet of human behaviour doesn't say a lot for me either.

I stared in disbelief at a group of people who think they're "taking back control" whilst trying their hardest to hand it over to a teeny group of elites.
I don't remember any leavers cheering when the governments attempt to remove power from parliament and hand it over to the executive was blocked by the high court - which makes a nonsense of one of their bigger claims.

I reckon you guys actually want to be serfs, perhaps as long as those in power can scratch the backs of their mates and pocket cash in their tax havens you're actually happy as long as nobody is pointing out what's happening?

There's no doubt that outside of the EU and its threatened clamp down on tax evasion, environmental concerns, work/life balances etc along with leaving the HCHR us serfs are in a worse position than we were before.

Nope, incredulous sums it up for me.


Richard Dawkins champion of remain, out sized IQ etc, he has to be kept under the carpet though because of his views on religion, particulary Islam.

andrec
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 6 Jul 2019, 4:17pm

bovlomov wrote:Electoral law is there for a reason. Spending rules are there for a reason.

We know that both VoteLeave and Leave.EU broke the law on an unprecedented scale. Their supporters try to claim the democratic high ground while condoning the criminality that gave them the victory.

Brexit supporters like to talk about 'the establishment'. Well, perhaps they can explain how the establishment, in the form of the PM, the CPS, the police, the Electoral Commission and the BBC, have done their best to sweep the criminality under the carpet, and how it is only the actions of individuals that have forced the authorities to do anything about those crimes.


It wouldn't look good for the establishment to go in too hard against minor spending infringements in the referendum campaign when the government spent about £9 million sending out a leaflet begging us all to vote remain.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 6 Jul 2019, 4:35pm

windmiller wrote:Richard Dawkins champion of remain, out sized IQ etc, he has to be kept under the carpet though because of his views on religion, particulary Islam.

And what has Dawkins got to do with anything I said?

If it's simply a game of Top Trumps then I give you Dyson, a man who not that long ago said that if we didn't join the Euro he'd take his jobs elsewhere.
We didn't and he did.
How can a supporter of brexit be previously so keen on joining the Euro? Could it be that perhaps he's just a smite biased in his own favour?

I'd say he Trumps Dawkins because the only real argument against Dawkin is one of his religious views which frankly have no meaning at all in the context of brexit whereas Dyson...

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 6 Jul 2019, 5:02pm

andrec wrote:It wouldn't look good for the establishment to go in too hard against minor spending infringements in the referendum campaign when the government spent about £9 million sending out a leaflet begging us all to vote remain.

Are you not aware of what happened? It wasn't a matter of minor spending infringements.

Is your argument that a pro-remain establishment was embarrassed to prosecute crimes by the leave campaigns?

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 6 Jul 2019, 6:58pm

windmiller wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:When Brexit comes you will be gone threat to woman


You really are cherry picking an islolated paranoid example with that one


Nope ... simply a local news story in. the local Rag today

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 6 Jul 2019, 7:01pm

bovlomov wrote:
andrec wrote:It wouldn't look good for the establishment to go in too hard against minor spending infringements in the referendum campaign when the government spent about £9 million sending out a leaflet begging us all to vote remain.

Are you not aware of what happened? It wasn't a matter of minor spending infringements.

Is your argument that a pro-remain establishment was embarrassed to prosecute crimes by the leave campaigns?


What is more worrying is the refusal of Farage to register the "Brexit party" as a political party so he can evade financial scrutiny and hide his sponsors

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 6 Jul 2019, 10:58pm

Cunobelin wrote:
windmiller wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:When Brexit comes you will be gone threat to woman


You really are cherry picking an islolated paranoid example with that one


Nope ... simply a local news story in. the local Rag today


Well you just paraphrased what I said

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Graham
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Graham » 7 Jul 2019, 11:36am

kwackers wrote:
Graham wrote:Anyhow, whatever happens the magnitude of environmental threats is now looming ever larger over our unsustainable lifestyles.
UK - In or Out of Europe - is a mere sideshow.

One of my big reasons for voting remain is because I believe the coming environmental catastrophe was best handled as a member of the EU.
For all it's faults the EU has consistently moved us progressively towards a lower carbon future and because we all move in that direction together nobody gets an advantage over another. As a huge trading block it also has the power to insist trading partners do their bit.

Outside of it there's little to no chance because environmental issues cost money in the short term and ignoring them gives one a 'leg up' over countries that don't.

Does it do enough? Not really, but it does a lot more than we'll ever do outside of it.

On the one hand I suspect that the need to comply with some EU Environmental directives has dragged the UK, kicking and screaming, into compliance.
e.g. Water Quality

On the other I would suggest that Gove Report proposing the payment of landowner for "Eco-system Services" as a replacement for the Common Agricultural Payments ( CAP ), is an essential step forwards.
Historically, the CAP is / was an immoveable object, beneficial to the french farming sector, to the disadvantage of other countries & the environment.

Likewise the new UK law to move towards a zero carbon economy by 2050 - appears to be initiated in the UK.

Will the Germans make significant sacrifices to their car industry for the common good ?
Will the French make significant sacrifices to their agricultural sector for the common good ?
I really don't know, but it does raise the never-ending dilemma of national interests versus greater good / fairness .

Complex & unknowable as usual !

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 7 Jul 2019, 1:21pm

Graham wrote:
kwackers wrote:
Graham wrote:Anyhow, whatever happens the magnitude of environmental threats is now looming ever larger over our unsustainable lifestyles.
UK - In or Out of Europe - is a mere sideshow.

One of my big reasons for voting remain is because I believe the coming environmental catastrophe was best handled as a member of the EU.
For all it's faults the EU has consistently moved us progressively towards a lower carbon future and because we all move in that direction together nobody gets an advantage over another. As a huge trading block it also has the power to insist trading partners do their bit.

Outside of it there's little to no chance because environmental issues cost money in the short term and ignoring them gives one a 'leg up' over countries that don't.

Does it do enough? Not really, but it does a lot more than we'll ever do outside of it.

On the one hand I suspect that the need to comply with some EU Environmental directives has dragged the UK, kicking and screaming, into compliance.
e.g. Water Quality

On the other I would suggest that Gove Report proposing the payment of landowner for "Eco-system Services" as a replacement for the Common Agricultural Payments ( CAP ), is an essential step forwards.
Historically, the CAP is / was an immoveable object, beneficial to the french farming sector, to the disadvantage of other countries & the environment.

Likewise the new UK law to move towards a zero carbon economy by 2050 - appears to be initiated in the UK.

Will the Germans make significant sacrifices to their car industry for the common good ?
Will the French make significant sacrifices to their agricultural sector for the common good ?
I really don't know, but it does raise the never-ending dilemma of national interests versus greater good / fairness .

Complex & unknowable as usual !


We already have the warnings from Farage and cronies.

They are ready to sacrifice our food standards, allow the NHS to be a political pawn in trade deals (including changing to an insurance base)

With the demands that "anything and everything" is accessible as part of the negotiations, there is a real fear that the cost of doing business with the US will be at the cost of playing along with many of their bizarre policies on climate change and the like

Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 7 Jul 2019, 7:58pm

kwackers wrote:That's just nonsense.

It's nothing like that and all to do with simple incredulousness at how easily you were taken in.
You fell for it hook line and sinker and I'm personally astonished by how folk were played - I seriously thought people were better than that but then I forgot about the falling IQ of the mob which given it's a basic tenet of human behaviour doesn't say a lot for me either.

I stared in disbelief at a group of people who think they're "taking back control" whilst trying their hardest to hand it over to a teeny group of elites.
I don't remember any leavers cheering when the governments attempt to remove power from parliament and hand it over to the executive was blocked by the high court - which makes a nonsense of one of their bigger claims.

I reckon you guys actually want to be serfs, perhaps as long as those in power can scratch the backs of their mates and pocket cash in their tax havens you're actually happy as long as nobody is pointing out what's happening?

There's no doubt that outside of the EU and its threatened clamp down on tax evasion, environmental concerns, work/life balances etc along with leaving the HCHR us serfs are in a worse position than we were before.

Nope, incredulous sums it up for me.

Agreed^

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 8 Jul 2019, 6:17am

andrec wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Electoral law is there for a reason. Spending rules are there for a reason.

We know that both VoteLeave and Leave.EU broke the law on an unprecedented scale. Their supporters try to claim the democratic high ground while condoning the criminality that gave them the victory.

Brexit supporters like to talk about 'the establishment'. Well, perhaps they can explain how the establishment, in the form of the PM, the CPS, the police, the Electoral Commission and the BBC, have done their best to sweep the criminality under the carpet, and how it is only the actions of individuals that have forced the authorities to do anything about those crimes.


It wouldn't look good for the establishment to go in too hard against minor spending infringements in the referendum campaign when the government spent about £9 million sending out a leaflet begging us all to vote remain.


The irony is that had the referendum been binding rather than advisory the result would have been declared null and void because of the criminality of the leave campaign.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 8 Jul 2019, 6:48am

pete75 wrote:
andrec wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Electoral law is there for a reason. Spending rules are there for a reason.

We know that both VoteLeave and Leave.EU broke the law on an unprecedented scale. Their supporters try to claim the democratic high ground while condoning the criminality that gave them the victory.

Brexit supporters like to talk about 'the establishment'. Well, perhaps they can explain how the establishment, in the form of the PM, the CPS, the police, the Electoral Commission and the BBC, have done their best to sweep the criminality under the carpet, and how it is only the actions of individuals that have forced the authorities to do anything about those crimes.


It wouldn't look good for the establishment to go in too hard against minor spending infringements in the referendum campaign when the government spent about £9 million sending out a leaflet begging us all to vote remain.


The irony is that had the referendum been binding rather than advisory the result would have been declared null and void because of the criminality of the leave campaign.


Well the referendham was binding as it should be, So you really think votes in a democracy should only be advisory unless they go your way. This is also what the EU thinks as was demonstrated in the Republic of Ireland.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 8 Jul 2019, 8:17am

windmiller wrote:So you really think votes in a democracy should only be advisory unless they go your way.

Is that a question or a statement? Either way, it seems to be a misunderstanding of what pete75 wrote.

To put in another way: do you support election fraud?

This is also what the EU thinks as was demonstrated in the Republic of Ireland.

As I understand it, the Irish voted down the proposals at a referendum. The proposals were changed in order to placate some of the objections. The new proposals were approved in another referendum.

Do you have other information?

But anyway, the EU has great support in Ireland these days. perhaps as they see the madness of the UK's approach.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 8 Jul 2019, 5:45pm

So you really think votes in a democracy should only be advisory unless they go your way?
So that's a yes then

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 8 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

windmiller wrote:So you really think votes in a democracy should only be advisory unless they go your way?
So that's a yes then


Please refrain from putting words in others mouths.

Thank you.