** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2226
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 10 Jul 2019, 7:15pm

andrec wrote:
It's dream come true. Even four years ago it seemed impossible. The bad things about Brexit are these 1. the way it has revealed that some people are capable of such a degree of devotion to a political project, and that's a bit scary 2. how it has caused those people to reveal just what they think of people who are not devoted to it.


At last we agree on something. I'm fact two things! Huzzah!!

1) That the Conservative and Unionist Party believes breakup of the union is less important than Brexit is, indeed, a bit scary.

2) That judges upholding the law, causing a minor inconvenience to Brexit at worst, are regarded "enemies of the people" is most revealing.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4033
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 10 Jul 2019, 7:26pm

andrec wrote:...it has revealed that some people are capable of such a degree of devotion to a political project, and that's a bit scary

Well, you can count me out of that. Over the years, I've been sympathetic to the idea of leaving the EU. I'm not, however, sympathetic to lies, ignorance and fantasies.

I'll say it again. Brexit could have been successful on clearly defined terms. A Brexit built on dishonesty can never succeed.

andrec
Posts: 110
Joined: 1 Jul 2019, 12:35pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 10 Jul 2019, 7:45pm

bovlomov wrote:
andrec wrote:...it has revealed that some people are capable of such a degree of devotion to a political project, and that's a bit scary

Well, you can count me out of that. Over the years, I've been sympathetic to the idea of leaving the EU. I'm not, however, sympathetic to lies, ignorance and fantasies.

I'll say it again. Brexit could have been successful on clearly defined terms. A Brexit built on dishonesty can never succeed.


There were never going to be clearly defined terms for Brexit. Politics doesn't work like that. Our membership of the EU has been based on dishonesty and that's one reason why many people voted Leave. It did deliver the promised prosperity to some, but many others suffered, especially in recent years. In a democracy it is hard to resist the will of the people for ever, and the pro-EU factions in our society seem to have little of no interest in how others have been affected. That's why they lost the 2016 people's vote. They didn't have the common sense to listen to others to see what they thought of the EU. They arrogantly assumed that it was wonderful for everyone and that those who didn't think so were simply wrong and unable to understand the issue. They were totally unprepared for the people's vote and so their campaign was shambolic and amateur. Even Mrs Clinton's 2016 haughty, out of touch and doomed campaign for the presidency was professional in comparison.

Bowedw
Posts: 279
Joined: 22 Feb 2011, 10:26pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bowedw » 10 Jul 2019, 8:54pm

I am of the opinion that majority of people who looked at the facts sensibly will agree with you andrec. As one well passed his youthful bloom, I have witnessed the negative ?destructive effect our membership of the EU on basic industries. Forty years of gravy train for Brussels compared with one bus poster that may or may not have swayed people, it certainly did not have any impact on my analysis of the broad picture.

Oldjohnw
Posts: 1915
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 10 Jul 2019, 8:59pm

andrec wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
andrec wrote:After the way they ignored the Leave side for 41 years they can expect little sympathy from them while they endure this.

I wonder if you could quickly explain what was so onerous about those 40 years.

What dire things were imposed upon us solely by Brussels?

Did you see no advantages in membership of say the Common Market?

My personal view is that the EU have improved things in the UK and helped put pressure on Westminster to get it's finger out, especially, but not only, in areas of enviromental legislation


I don't see the need for any of our laws to be made in a foreign parliament. When we leave the EU we will return to making all our own laws, a situation which is the norm for most countries. I see the advantages of trading agreements, which was what the Common Market was. Perhaps I would not be a Leave voter if we still had the old EEC instead of the EU. I have every confidence in the UK people to make their own laws on everything, the environment, employment, safety, human rights etc included. I see no need for foreign supervision. Membership of the EU is restrictive, lessening our ability to change the laws which apply in this country if and when the UK electorate sees fit. There is no reason for us to impose these restrictions upon ourselves by remaining a member of the EU.

Remind me which of our laws were made in a foreign parliament.
John

Cycling and recycling

User avatar
RickH
Posts: 4528
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby RickH » 10 Jul 2019, 9:07pm

Oldjohnw wrote:Remind me which of our laws were made in a foreign parliament.

Aren't the ones banning prawn cocktail crisps & double decker buses good examples?

Oh wait... they were just examples of Boris completely fabricating stories in his journalistic career when he was a "Brussels Correspondent".

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4033
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 10 Jul 2019, 9:15pm

Bowedw wrote:I am of the opinion that majority of people who looked at the facts sensibly will agree with you andrec.

Apart from all the people who actually know how the world works, both UK citizens and foreign.

Don't you wonder why trade experts, diplomats and international negotiators from around the world are all amazed by our folly? And can't you see that the rest of the world is either laughing at us or looking on with bemusement and pity?

Are they all part of a Remainer plot?

User avatar
horizon
Posts: 9654
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 10 Jul 2019, 9:28pm

andrec wrote:It did deliver the promised prosperity to some, but many others suffered, especially in recent years.


andrec: you can see that there is some disagreement as to why some people suffered and whether it had anything to do with the EU. Remember, we had the Thatcher years and we've had the Austerity years. Any further information on your part as to how the EU led to greater suffering is greatly welcomed (I'm not saying the evidence doesn't exist but that's the bit we need to explore further).


They were totally unprepared for the people's vote and so their campaign was shambolic and amateur.


No-one expected leave to win, no-one expected that anyone would actually vote for anything as absurd as Brexit (and they still can't understand it). That's why this thread is ongoing: why Brexit? It is very, very hard to understand. But there are reasons and I for one would like to understand them.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4033
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 10 Jul 2019, 9:30pm

andrec wrote:
bovlomov wrote:
andrec wrote:...it has revealed that some people are capable of such a degree of devotion to a political project, and that's a bit scary

Well, you can count me out of that. Over the years, I've been sympathetic to the idea of leaving the EU. I'm not, however, sympathetic to lies, ignorance and fantasies.

I'll say it again. Brexit could have been successful on clearly defined terms. A Brexit built on dishonesty can never succeed.


There were never going to be clearly defined terms for Brexit.

The people promoting Brexit have shown, repeatedly, that they don't know how the EU works, and they don't know about international law and trade. All they knew was that any realistic Brexit wouldn't have gained more than a tiny minority of supporters. So they lied instead.

the pro-EU factions in our society seem to have little of no interest in how others have been affected.

You mean poverty? You might ask yourself what interest Johnson, Hannan, Gove, Farage, Rees-Mogg, etc have ever taken in poverty. You might ask yourself what interest the Conservative Party has taken in poverty. You might ask yourself why one of the richest countries in the world has so many disaffected people.

Or you could blame the EU, that took more interest in UK poverty than our own government.

They arrogantly assumed that it was wonderful for everyone and that those who didn't think so were simply wrong

They correctly assumed that many of the criticisms of the EU were simply wrong.

It's been one of the constants of Euroscepticism, to ignore genuine faults with the EU, fail to engage in any meaningful attempts at reform*, and instead make up false stories. It's laziness, I think. The problems with the EU require a level of understanding, and the solutions require hard work. Lies are easier.

*EDIT: Though Farage has made many a photo opportunity out of fishing, is it correct that he has attended only one (1) EU fisheries meeting?
Last edited by bovlomov on 10 Jul 2019, 9:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
Posts: 11802
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 10 Jul 2019, 9:42pm

pete75 wrote:
andrec wrote:
bovlomov wrote:Most Brexiters have already rowed back, from telling us of the great riches, now it won't be as bad a WWII or the plague. They admit their GATT XXIV plan is rubbish. They admit the EU doesn't need us as much as we need them. They admit many industries will suffer.

It's not what Remainers are telling themselves. It's reality meeting Brexiter fantasy.


It's dream come true. Even four years ago it seemed impossible. The bad things about Brexit are these 1. the way it has revealed that some people are capable of such a degree of devotion to a political project, and that's a bit scary 2. how it has caused those people to reveal just what they think of people who are not devoted to it.


You've told us about the bad things now tell us what the benefits of brexit will be.


Still waiting - or can't you think of any sensible or realistic benefits other than my side won. I wish you well with that thought as it obviously seems to massage the fragile little egos of many leavers.

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2226
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 10 Jul 2019, 9:49pm

Bowedw wrote:I am of the opinion that majority of people who looked at the facts sensibly will agree with you andrec. As one well passed his youthful bloom, I have witnessed the negative ?destructive effect our membership of the EU on basic industries. Forty years of gravy train for Brussels compared with one bus poster that may or may not have swayed people, it certainly did not have any impact on my analysis of the broad picture.


Given that the negative the effect of Brexit on our industry is quite literally undisputed by any reputable experts, it's fair to say that this remarkable opinion is unsupported by evidence.

windmiller
Posts: 410
Joined: 9 Feb 2009, 5:10pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 10 Jul 2019, 10:46pm

pete75 wrote:
pete75 wrote:
andrec wrote:
It's dream come true. Even four years ago it seemed impossible. The bad things about Brexit are these 1. the way it has revealed that some people are capable of such a degree of devotion to a political project, and that's a bit scary 2. how it has caused those people to reveal just what they think of people who are not devoted to it.


You've told us about the bad things now tell us what the benefits of brexit will be.


Still waiting - or can't you think of any sensible or realistic benefits other than my side won. I wish you well with that thought as it obviously seems to massage the fragile little egos of many leavers.


Here are 10 reasons to feel positive after Brexit listed in the INDEPENDENT lefty snowflake rag
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 04016.html

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9183
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 10 Jul 2019, 10:54pm

windmiller wrote:Here are 10 reasons to feel positive after Brexit listed in the INDEPENDENT lefty snowflake rag
What this demonstrates is that the Independent is prepared to give space for articles which run contrary to their editorial policy. Is there anything bad about that? I expect them to come up with a whole raft of details of the negative aspects of brex**it, in a future article.

And perhaps you could explain your use of the derogatory word "snowflake", in referring to the Independent. Because for the life of me, I can't see any connection. A snowflake is an ice crystal usually displaying sixfold symmetry. Yes, I know the word has another meaning....
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

roubaixtuesday
Posts: 2226
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 10 Jul 2019, 10:57pm

661-Pete wrote:
windmiller wrote:Here are 10 reasons to feel positive after Brexit listed in the INDEPENDENT lefty snowflake rag
What this demonstrates is that the Independent is prepared to give space for articles which run contrary to their editorial policy. Is there anything bad about that? I expect them to come up with a whole raft of details of the negative aspects of brex**it, in a future article.

And perhaps you could explain your use of the derogatory word "snowflake", in referring to the Independent. Because for the life of me, I can't see any connection. A snowflake is an ice crystal usually displaying sixfold symmetry. Yes, I know the word has another meaning....


I have had a request from mods to report such posts and not respond to them.

pete75
Posts: 11802
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 10 Jul 2019, 10:59pm

windmiller wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pete75 wrote:
You've told us about the bad things now tell us what the benefits of brexit will be.


Still waiting - or can't you think of any sensible or realistic benefits other than my side won. I wish you well with that thought as it obviously seems to massage the fragile little egos of many leavers.


Here are 10 reasons to feel positive after Brexit listed in the INDEPENDENT lefty snowflake rag

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 04016.html


From that article " Or we can go all Thatcherite (as I suspect Gove and Johnson wish to) and shred workers' rights, the welfare state" you may well think that very positive - I don't.

What do you mean by the cliche snowflake?