** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 12 Jul 2019, 9:52am

horizon wrote:
windmiller wrote:
Leavers are less educated than remainers and that's a fact. You really know that? Or should I say you really believe opinion polls


Actually I was supporting andrec's point that the referendum was a bit of a slap in the face (my words) for the educated, the managerial etc. BTW, that's not polls, that's research. So you'll have to have that out with andrec.

And also BTW, that isn't sneering at people less well "educated": in fact it was saying that a few pompous Remainers hadn't looked past people's lack of exam results to see real people with good hearts and minds.


I have come to the conclusion that there isn't a good correlation between wisdom and educational qualifications, or even between wisdom and economic success. I have dealt with incredibly thick but well educated people with a good income, and with very bright but poorly educated people. One sure sign of a thick but well educated person is that they will assume they are more intelligent than people with less in the the way of qualifications, or on a lower income. That really is a stupid assumption.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 12 Jul 2019, 9:54am

windmiller wrote:
Leavers are less educated than remainers and that's a fact. You really know that? Or should I say you really believe opinion polls - like the ones that stated that remain was going to win. Facts and experts don't really mix with polictics, Better to look to the conclusions of events or history if you want to take a stab at facts. A democracy should be led by the people via their representitives not by experts who are there to give advice when asked which is optional and not binding like it has been for a long time.


Bit of a ramble there windy.

regarding facts and your:

Or should I say you really believe opinion polls - like the ones that stated that remain was going to win


This is a myth, not a fact.

Polls prior to the referendum were predicting a near dead heat, exactly as it turned out.

If you're going to lecture on facts, try getting yours right

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics- ... m-36271589

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georgew
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby georgew » 12 Jul 2019, 10:12am

I'm willing to suggest that one factor in the rich voting to leave the EU, was the impending EU legislation aimed at curbing tax avoidance measures....something not appreciated by our wealthy brethren. After all, the fact that both Boris's Daddy and Lord Snooty's Daddy made their fortunes from creating businesses which were involved in selling tax avoidance, has to be an indicator of the attitudes of their prodigy.

Again as an old person, who every day meets and talks with old people, I believe that their attitude towards the EU was in large part shaped by their almost total reliance upon the mainstream media for their information regarding this institution. People in my age group I have found, are completely disconnected from social media and are hugely influenced by the popular press and the BBC. Given that, for at least thirty years, our popular press has dripped a steady stream of anti-EU propaganda into the public consciousness, it should come as no surprise that the older generations have absorbed these views, and of course, the BBC has merely parroted the views of our press.
Again, those of my age do have memories of the last war and the years following this, a time when the population felt more united and the UK was still an admired institution.....all gone now of course.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 12 Jul 2019, 11:41am

georgew wrote:I'm willing to suggest that one factor in the rich voting to leave the EU, was the impending EU legislation aimed at curbing tax avoidance measures....something not appreciated by our wealthy brethren. After all, the fact that both Boris's Daddy and Lord Snooty's Daddy made their fortunes from creating businesses which were involved in selling tax avoidance, has to be an indicator of the attitudes of their prodigy.

Again as an old person, who every day meets and talks with old people, I believe that their attitude towards the EU was in large part shaped by their almost total reliance upon the mainstream media for their information regarding this institution. People in my age group I have found, are completely disconnected from social media and are hugely influenced by the popular press and the BBC. Given that, for at least thirty years, our popular press has dripped a steady stream of anti-EU propaganda into the public consciousness, it should come as no surprise that the older generations have absorbed these views, and of course, the BBC has merely parroted the views of our press.
Again, those of my age do have memories of the last war and the years following this, a time when the population felt more united and the UK was still an admired institution.....all gone now of course.

I agree.
Nail head on.
Sound assessment.

pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 12 Jul 2019, 11:52am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
georgew wrote:I'm willing to suggest that one factor in the rich voting to leave the EU, was the impending EU legislation aimed at curbing tax avoidance measures....something not appreciated by our wealthy brethren. After all, the fact that both Boris's Daddy and Lord Snooty's Daddy made their fortunes from creating businesses which were involved in selling tax avoidance, has to be an indicator of the attitudes of their prodigy.

Again as an old person, who every day meets and talks with old people, I believe that their attitude towards the EU was in large part shaped by their almost total reliance upon the mainstream media for their information regarding this institution. People in my age group I have found, are completely disconnected from social media and are hugely influenced by the popular press and the BBC. Given that, for at least thirty years, our popular press has dripped a steady stream of anti-EU propaganda into the public consciousness, it should come as no surprise that the older generations have absorbed these views, and of course, the BBC has merely parroted the views of our press.
Again, those of my age do have memories of the last war and the years following this, a time when the population felt more united and the UK was still an admired institution.....all gone now of course.

I agree.
Nail head on.
Sound assessment.

I wonder if you are falling into the trap of thinking every bit of criticism of the EU is propaganda, and every bit of praise for the EU is information. When I was watching mainstream (BBC / ITV) coverage leading upto the referendum I was shocked at how unashamedly pro-EU membership it was. That's how it seemed to me. To you it seemed otherwise? Robert Peston even confessed afterwards that he was a Remainer and had naively assumed nearly everybody else would be when push came to shove. I very much doubt that there would be many Leave voting journalists among the ranks of the Beeb and ITV.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 12 Jul 2019, 12:10pm

pwa wrote:I wonder if you are falling into the trap of thinking every bit of criticism of the EU is propaganda, and every bit of praise for the EU is information. When I was watching mainstream (BBC / ITV) coverage leading upto the referendum I was shocked at how unashamedly pro-EU membership it was. That's how it seemed to me. To you it seemed otherwise? Robert Peston even confessed afterwards that he was a Remainer and had naively assumed nearly everybody else would be when push came to shove. I very much doubt that there would be many Leave voting journalists among the ranks of the Beeb and ITV.

Given remainers tend to see the beeb as pro-brexit and leavers as pro-remain I suspect they're probably fairly balanced.

The beebs problem imo is often it tries too hard for balance and you have bonkers minorities presented as valid alternatives.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 12 Jul 2019, 12:12pm

^^pwa.
I have to say to me it did seem otherwise.
There is more to coverage of any event than just it's content.
It's called editing.

It seemed to me the all important last word -.the one that sticks in the mind- seemed to be given far more to the Leave side.
I found myself really dismayed very many times during the campaign.

I am talking about radio (and some internet) coverage.
I can't afford a tv licence.

And then as Geogiou suggests the years of drip drip feed of a deal of the popular press- the Tory tool (if you will pardon the expression!), blaming the EU for it's austerity policy.

So I was not surprised at the result.
It was clearly going to be close.
Go back and look at the pre-referendum thread on here!
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 12 Jul 2019, 12:14pm, edited 2 times in total.

pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 12 Jul 2019, 12:13pm

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I wonder if you are falling into the trap of thinking every bit of criticism of the EU is propaganda, and every bit of praise for the EU is information. When I was watching mainstream (BBC / ITV) coverage leading upto the referendum I was shocked at how unashamedly pro-EU membership it was. That's how it seemed to me. To you it seemed otherwise? Robert Peston even confessed afterwards that he was a Remainer and had naively assumed nearly everybody else would be when push came to shove. I very much doubt that there would be many Leave voting journalists among the ranks of the Beeb and ITV.

Given remainers tend to see the beeb as pro-brexit and leavers as pro-remain I suspect they're probably fairly balanced.

The beebs problem imo is often it tries too hard for balance and you have bonkers minorities presented as valid alternatives.

I do think (as you do) that we should not be wanting or expecting good news media to accurately reflect our own views all the time.

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 12 Jul 2019, 12:27pm

pwa wrote:I do think (as you do) that we should not be wanting or expecting good news media to accurately reflect our own views all the time.

Within reason.

It's the moon landing 50th anniversary - as long as we don't get flat earthers and moon landing conspiracists given equal time on any reports then I'm good. ;)

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 12 Jul 2019, 1:27pm

kwackers wrote:
pwa wrote:I do think (as you do) that we should not be wanting or expecting good news media to accurately reflect our own views all the time.

Within reason.

It's the moon landing 50th anniversary - as long as we don't get flat earthers and moon landing conspiracists given equal time on any reports then I'm good. ;)
Let them have their say! I'm a flat-earther at heart, though not a moon-landing-conspiracy-nut. Yes I believe they landed on the moon. Of course the moon's got to be flat, just like the Earth is, so the guys were obviously walking on it with their heads downwards. Nasa put sticky soles on their boots, tied invisible bungee ropes to them, and turned the camera upside down, so we'd think they were moonwalking. Fact. Prove me wrong! :wink:
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 12 Jul 2019, 1:34pm

On a more serious note, this is what a brex**iteer has just spouted forth:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-comments
323 men, almost all Argentinian conscripts, were killed on the Belgrano. Not something to pass lightly over!

And this is an elected MEP of the Brex**it party speaking. Not some **** in a pub holding forth after too many pints...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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georgew
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby georgew » 12 Jul 2019, 2:52pm

pwa wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Sound assessment.

I wonder if you are falling into the trap of thinking every bit of criticism of the EU is propaganda, and every bit of praise for the EU is information. When I was watching mainstream (BBC / ITV) coverage leading upto the referendum I was shocked at how unashamedly pro-EU membership it was. That's how it seemed to me. To you it seemed otherwise? Robert Peston even confessed afterwards that he was a Remainer and had naively assumed nearly everybody else would be when push came to shove. I very much doubt that there would be many Leave voting journalists among the ranks of the Beeb and ITV.


I doubt it, as I'm well aware of the deficiencies of the EU as I am of its merits. That said, the number of appearances of UKIP members and of Farage on flagship programmes such as Question Time is a disgrace.

"Nigel Farage is reportedly set to achieve the joint highest number of Question Time appearances this century when he appears on the BBC show tomorrow night.......The former Ukip leader will make his 32nd appearance on the show as it airs from Blackpool – with the tally only matched by former Chancellor Ken Clarke.......
Farage’s latest appearance comes after it was revealed that Ukip appeared on almost one in four of the BBC’s Question Time programmes in the last seven years – despite never having more than two MPs.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nigel-farage- ... zl3QGW6sqc

kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 12 Jul 2019, 3:14pm

661-Pete wrote:And this is an elected MEP of the Brex**it party speaking. Not some **** in a pub holding forth after too many pints...

There's a difference?

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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 12 Jul 2019, 3:47pm

kwackers wrote:
661-Pete wrote:And this is an elected MEP of the Brex**it party speaking. Not some **** in a pub holding forth after too many pints...

There's a difference?
I take it that was a rhetorical question... :shock:
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

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Pastychomper
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Pastychomper » 12 Jul 2019, 4:09pm

georgew wrote:... the number of appearances of UKIP members and of Farage on flagship programmes such as Question Time is a disgrace.
...

Maybe that's why both sides think the BBC is biased against them: remainers see Farage as a supporter of brexit, leavers see him as an embarrassment.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
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