** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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andrec
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 13 Jul 2019, 9:14pm

horizon wrote:
andrec wrote:Leavers like me don't need to explain ourselves. We've won. Explaining was for the people's vote campaign in 2016. However, I must point out that I have already explained myself. Maybe you've overlooked my posts. I'll recap. I don't want a foreign parliament to have any say in the laws we have to obey in the UK, and I have every confidence in the people of the UK to make their own laws, including those on the environment, safety, food standards, human rights etc.


That's fair enough. But Leavers who expound Brexit (party leaders etc) do need to explain themselves (in order to win people over). The process lurches on: if you believe it completed in 2016, again fair enough but it looks to me as if it is very much still in process, whatever the outcome. Explaining helps people to understand Brexit and gets it over the line. Change is often a long and messy process - ask any campaigner.


I disagree. Leave leaders do not need to explain themselves at all in order to win people over. The people's vote has been won. The governing party has a policy of honouring the people's decision and we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit. To me it seems that it is the Remain side which needs to do some explaining to win people over, and very quickly indeed, if it is avert total defeat. Many Remainers have tried very hard to avoid any defeat at all since 2016, but I can't help wondering of they should have been more constructive and tried to mitigate the scale of it. After the disastrous 2016 Remain campaign perhaps they should have taken a bit of time for reflection and reconsideration of their tactics, but all they did was continue and intensify the very same approach which lost them the referendum in the first place.

andrec
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 13 Jul 2019, 9:26pm

Cunobelin wrote:
irc wrote:
kwackers wrote:Ban him no? Give him less airtime? Definitely.

His position in the world doesn't warrant the attention he gets..


He leads a party that won the Euro elections and advocates Brexit the side that won a majority in the referendum. It seems to me that does justify regular QT appearances. Though I agree having a greater number of different Brexit Party politicians on QT would be a good thing.



This is the real change.. 10 years ago a corrupt politician running a party with no financial scrutiny, no manifesto and such an appalling record would have been the subject of genuine doubt and concern


Translation - you don't like him and his party.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 13 Jul 2019, 9:47pm

andrec wrote: Leave leaders do not need to explain themselves at all in order to win people over. The people's vote has been won.


I see what you are saying. Would you agree with me that we will have to wait until November 1st to really find out?
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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 13 Jul 2019, 10:14pm

andrec wrote:we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit.

You don't believe that, do you? Johnson is telling Tory members what he thinks they want to hear. Unless you are a Tory member, you're not expected to believe him.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 10:20pm

andrec wrote:we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit.

It's incredible what some people will believe if it fits their narrative :roll:
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kwackers
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 13 Jul 2019, 10:44pm

reohn2 wrote:
andrec wrote:we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit.

It's incredible what some people will believe if it fits their narrative :roll:

Incredible? I think some folk just enjoy trolling.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Jul 2019, 10:47pm

reohn2 wrote:
andrec wrote:we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit.

It's incredible what some people will believe if it fits their narrative :roll:


It seems as if "andrec" would follow them (almost?) anywhere.

But we are still waiting for a single example of bad UK law inposed by the EU.
This was the sole reason he gave for wanting to leave many pages back.

"Take back control", I guess.
It was a great slogan.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 13 Jul 2019, 10:52pm

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
andrec wrote:we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit.

It's incredible what some people will believe if it fits their narrative :roll:

Incredible? I think some folk just enjoy trolling.

I didn't like saying as we already have one on this thread,but.......
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Jul 2019, 11:00pm

andrec wrote:
horizon wrote:
andrec wrote:Leavers like me don't need to explain ourselves. We've won. Explaining was for the people's vote campaign in 2016. However, I must point out that I have already explained myself. Maybe you've overlooked my posts. I'll recap. I don't want a foreign parliament to have any say in the laws we have to obey in the UK, and I have every confidence in the people of the UK to make their own laws, including those on the environment, safety, food standards, human rights etc.


That's fair enough. But Leavers who expound Brexit (party leaders etc) do need to explain themselves (in order to win people over). The process lurches on: if you believe it completed in 2016, again fair enough but it looks to me as if it is very much still in process, whatever the outcome. Explaining helps people to understand Brexit and gets it over the line. Change is often a long and messy process - ask any campaigner.


I disagree. Leave leaders do not need to explain themselves at all in order to win people over. The people's vote has been won. The governing party has a policy of honouring the people's decision and we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit. To me it seems that it is the Remain side which needs to do some explaining to win people over, and very quickly indeed, if it is avert total defeat. Many Remainers have tried very hard to avoid any defeat at all since 2016, but I can't help wondering of they should have been more constructive and tried to mitigate the scale of it. After the disastrous 2016 Remain campaign perhaps they should have taken a bit of time for reflection and reconsideration of their tactics, but all they did was continue and intensify the very same approach which lost them the referendum in the first place.


Educate yourself. Learn from history.

Go read Machiavelli. Report back.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 13 Jul 2019, 11:33pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
andrec wrote:
horizon wrote:
That's fair enough. But Leavers who expound Brexit (party leaders etc) do need to explain themselves (in order to win people over). The process lurches on: if you believe it completed in 2016, again fair enough but it looks to me as if it is very much still in process, whatever the outcome. Explaining helps people to understand Brexit and gets it over the line. Change is often a long and messy process - ask any campaigner.


I disagree. Leave leaders do not need to explain themselves at all in order to win people over. The people's vote has been won. The governing party has a policy of honouring the people's decision and we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit. To me it seems that it is the Remain side which needs to do some explaining to win people over, and very quickly indeed, if it is avert total defeat. Many Remainers have tried very hard to avoid any defeat at all since 2016, but I can't help wondering of they should have been more constructive and tried to mitigate the scale of it. After the disastrous 2016 Remain campaign perhaps they should have taken a bit of time for reflection and reconsideration of their tactics, but all they did was continue and intensify the very same approach which lost them the referendum in the first place.


Educate yourself. Learn from history.

Go read Machiavelli. Report back.

Macheivelli author of The Prince, the Art of war etc. another European who wasn't big on democracy, I bet the European Commision library is well stacked and familiar with his works

andrec
Posts: 110
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby andrec » 13 Jul 2019, 11:45pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
andrec wrote:
horizon wrote:
That's fair enough. But Leavers who expound Brexit (party leaders etc) do need to explain themselves (in order to win people over). The process lurches on: if you believe it completed in 2016, again fair enough but it looks to me as if it is very much still in process, whatever the outcome. Explaining helps people to understand Brexit and gets it over the line. Change is often a long and messy process - ask any campaigner.


I disagree. Leave leaders do not need to explain themselves at all in order to win people over. The people's vote has been won. The governing party has a policy of honouring the people's decision and we are just about to get a new prime minister who has no qualms about a no deal Brexit. To me it seems that it is the Remain side which needs to do some explaining to win people over, and very quickly indeed, if it is avert total defeat. Many Remainers have tried very hard to avoid any defeat at all since 2016, but I can't help wondering of they should have been more constructive and tried to mitigate the scale of it. After the disastrous 2016 Remain campaign perhaps they should have taken a bit of time for reflection and reconsideration of their tactics, but all they did was continue and intensify the very same approach which lost them the referendum in the first place.


Educate yourself. Learn from history.

Go read Machiavelli. Report back.


I read him many years ago. I can't remember too much detail but I can remember he was a cynical gentleman who claimed he knew how to manipulate others to his own ends. I can only assume the leaders of the Remain campaign for the 2016 people's vote were unacquainted with his oeuvre.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 14 Jul 2019, 9:20am

andrec wrote:I can only assume the leaders of the Remain campaign for the 2016 people's vote were unacquainted with his oeuvre.

The leader of the Remain campaign was the leader of the Conservative Party. I'm not sure whose side he was on.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 14 Jul 2019, 9:31am

I think Hammond should have stood for leader?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48978739

Earlier this month, Mr Hammond told MPs a no-deal Brexit could cost the Treasury up to £90bn and said it would be up to them to ensure that "doesn't happen".

£90bn

we need that elsehwere rather than pay for Farage beating his chest. Think of all the houses that could be built etc Makes a nonsense of Osbornes austerity claim that doing what he did to the safety net was a matter of if ou dont have the money..... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jul 2019, 9:38am

bovlomov wrote:
andrec wrote:I can only assume the leaders of the Remain campaign for the 2016 people's vote were unacquainted with his oeuvre.

The leader of the Remain campaign was the leader of the Conservative Party. I'm not sure whose side he was on.

Indeed.

I do agree with "andrec" that the remain campaign was very poor.
I found myself many times during the campaign dismayed by the remain failure to address points. And to counter negative soundbites.
My perception remains (no pun intended) that the last word was given more to the leave spokesperson though, and significantly so.
No matter.

On "andrec"s wider point about remain now needing to persuade their case, that is indeed what a fair few of us on here have tried to do.

I do so wish "leave" could do the same by citing positive foreseen outcomes and genuine benefits.
Even if they are personal beliefs.

Much better and more believable than; "we won get over it".

Still waiting for an example of bad law imposed on the UK by the EU for example.

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Cunobelin
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 14 Jul 2019, 9:43am

andrec wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
irc wrote:
He leads a party that won the Euro elections and advocates Brexit the side that won a majority in the referendum. It seems to me that does justify regular QT appearances. Though I agree having a greater number of different Brexit Party politicians on QT would be a good thing.



This is the real change.. 10 years ago a corrupt politician running a party with no financial scrutiny, no manifesto and such an appalling record would have been the subject of genuine doubt and concern


Translation - you don't like him and his party.



Was that "Google Translate"?

Do you really think that refusing to reveal the sponsors, refusing to register as a political party to avoid scrutiny or have a manifesto is a safe an acceptable way forward for politics