** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 16 Jul 2019, 8:14am

windmiller wrote:(snip)
The EU ticks most of the boxes of being an Empire. (more snip) This awareness has awakened a sense of dormant patriotism in England which is most often sneered at by the left as right wing hatred of other nations or even fascism. This only angers the majority and empowers their will to break free from the bureaucratic tyranny that is the EU.


Ha ha - you been readin' that made-up Boris-stuff in The Torygraph about bananas and prawn flavoured crisps, as well as those aping the creature in their own gutter press lie-mongering rags.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... urosceptic

My advice is: check under your bed. I feel you will find only your chamber pot; perhaps also that mucky-mag you lost in 1977.

Cugel, who stopped reading the Rover & Adventure boys comic stories about the evil hun in 1959.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Jul 2019, 8:31am

windmiller wrote:...a sense of dormant patriotism in England which is most often sneered at by the left as right wing hatred of other nations or even fascism. This only angers the majority and empowers their will to break free from the bureaucratic tyranny that is the EU.


Weird that, how a "patriotism" which you yourself express as hyperbolic hatred of the EU (tyrrany! tyranny I tell you!!) is interpreted as... hatred of other nations.

Completely inexplicable, these sneering lefty types. Where do they get these ideas from?

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 16 Jul 2019, 8:39am

windmiller wrote:
All the countries in the UK except England can talk freely about the rights of themselves as a nation state without being branded bigoted nationalists.
The EU ticks most of the boxes of being an Empire. It conquests by economic proxy. The Scottish Nationalists in particular see membership or brexit as a double sided golden ticket out of the UK. This I believe will happen because of an awareness of the lack of democracy in a London centric led UK. This awareness has awakened a sense of dormant patriotism in England which is most often sneered at by the left as right wing hatred of other nations or even fascism. This only angers the majority and empowers their will to break free from the bureaucratic tyranny that is the EU.

We have waited long for any examples of this "tyranny". Too long now for the word to carry any meaning.
The argument lost without back up.

You confuse Patriotism with Nationalism.
A common error.

My patriotism is not in doubt and you may not cast aspersions upon it.
Patriotism stems from a deep love of place and people. An essence of belonging, quite hard to define but is ever present.
It extends itself happily, though slightly less intensely, into feeling a belonging in European cultures.

I have every confidence in the UK to play its full and strong role as a full member of the EU.
We bring something unique to that role, as was pointed out somewhere. A pragmatism.
And more.
Formally a sense of humour and the ability to see the faintly ridiculous side of all human existence.
It is a valuable attribute for it allows the worst excesses of Nationalism to be lightly laughed at.
The power of humour should never be underestimated.

That earlier lighthearted UK has been slightly sidelined by unscrupulous forces that try to "other" anyone that does not share their narrow view.

Trump is pro Brexit, and look at his recent statements.
The man's mask is very slipped.
A slippery slope to a place I do not want to go.
Farage is a Trump supporter.
Johnson too, though even he has distanced himself.

Indeed Trump could be viewed as the tyrant (and the tyranny) you purport to be so much against?

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 16 Jul 2019, 9:08am

windmiller wrote:All the countries in the UK except England can talk freely about the rights of themselves as a nation state without being branded bigoted nationalists.
The EU ticks most of the boxes of being an Empire. It conquests by economic proxy. The Scottish Nationalists in particular see membership or brexit as a double sided golden ticket out of the UK. This I believe will happen because of an awareness of the lack of democracy in a London centric led UK. This awareness has awakened a sense of dormant patriotism in England which is most often sneered at by the left as right wing hatred of other nations or even fascism. This only angers the majority and empowers their will to break free from the bureaucratic tyranny that is the EU.

It would have been good if we'd had an honest discussion about the nation state and the meaning of sovereignty, before the referendum. Then we could have all voted on that basis, aware of the inevitable trade-offs.

Unfortunately, however, the media campaign, conducted over decades, was built on a toxic mixture of made up stories and ignorance of how the world works. Johnson's stories in the Telegraph - when he was their Brussels correspondent - weren't intended to help the reader understand the relationship between the EU and the nation state. Rather the opposite; they were meant to mislead. 'Sovereignty' was a word thrown about glibly, but it was never discussed properly. If sovereignty is an absolute, then where does that leave international treaties and obligations, for example.

After the referendum, the reason why these weren't discussed became clear. The people who had spent their whole careers complaining about the EU - they hadn't a clue about how the EU, or international law and trade in general, worked. Every day since, their ignorance is revealed, about the WTO, GATT, the EU, the Swiss border, and more. All of the supposed brains of Brexit (how did we ever think this?): Hannan, Raab, Rees-Mogg, were revealed to know nothing.

Or there's another possibility: they did know. and Murdoch, Rothermere and the Barclays knew. All those fancy sounding institutes knew. But they carried on lying anyway, making up stories, and comparing the EU with the Third Reich. The reason? Because they knew that an honest discussion about nationhood, trade, globalisation, poverty, fishing, the environment... ...would never have gained traction. The population would have looked at the pros and cons and decided it was better to stay.

Lies were the only route to success for the Leave campaign, so they lied. Now, most of the liars can hardly remember what lies they told or what they thought they wanted. For that reason alone, Brexit can never be a success. Even through the eyes of Brexiters - especially through the eyes of Brexiters - Brexit can never be a success.

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 16 Jul 2019, 9:24am

Increasingly the only reason given for brexiting is that 'the people have voted' , no matter the falsehoods that brought about the vote in the first place.
John

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 16 Jul 2019, 9:34am

Oldjohnw wrote:Increasingly the only reason given for brexiting is that 'the people have voted' , no matter the falsehoods that brought about the vote in the first place.

The Will Of The People is the last resort, to be used whenever their claims about GATT XXIV, technological solutions or tariffs are challenged.

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 16 Jul 2019, 10:11am

Oldjohnw wrote:Increasingly the only reason given for brexiting is that 'the people have voted' , no matter the falsehoods that brought about the vote in the first place.

Quite right.
I asked the question again a couple of pages back if the Brexit supporters could give good reason for leaving and a plan after brexit,one even claimed they didn't need to because his/her side won which was reason enough,another in pages past has accused remainers of being anti British,and yet another blathers continually of unfounded EU tyrany.
They can't give good reason either now or on previous occasions I've asked the same question other Brexit supporters of a more reasonable stance are conspicuous by their absence.
I conclude therefore these people like Davies,Farage,BoJo,Fox,Raab et al,know nothing of how the UK's future outside will be because there's no plan of that eventuality.
Therefore there's no point conversing with them any longer on the subject as they lack meaningful conversation or discourse and seek nothing but their own sad entertainment value.
So I plead with anyone seeking meaningful discourse on the subject to cease posting on the thread and let it die the death it longs for.
As my Dad used to say,"you can talk all day to a chap with a wooden leg,but you're wasting your time talking to one with a wooden head"
I withdraw in the hope others may follow.
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I cycle therefore I am.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 16 Jul 2019, 10:55am

reohn2 wrote:I asked the question again a couple of pages back if the Brexit supporters could give good reason for leaving and a plan after brexit


In my mind they have given good reason and the plan is whatever follows. Brexit redefines the UK towards being a more clearly articulated nation state. I can see all sorts of problems with this (England versus the UK, immigrant populations, trade rules and ties, a weakening economy and so on). But I don't see a problem with the general proposition that the UK should be a nation state: that's a choice (or better put, an aspiration). It's not my choice but for many people it is their choice and at that point logical argument is less important.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 16 Jul 2019, 11:47am

Horizon^^
Good reasons?
What good reasons?
I for one have had a gutful of "gut feeling" or " we won get over it" type reasons.
We are still waiting for the childishly simple example of bad law imposed on us from Brussels.
We have been waiting 1000 pages.

These sentiments are not good reasons to throw away so much, for the possible benefit of a very elite few.

The UK is a nation state.
And holds its own quite happily at the Brussels table.
As in most walks of life benefit comes from compromise and attempt at understanding, not the reverse.

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bovlomov
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 16 Jul 2019, 11:54am

horizon wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I asked the question again a couple of pages back if the Brexit supporters could give good reason for leaving and a plan after brexit


In my mind they have given good reason and the plan is whatever follows. Brexit redefines the UK towards being a more clearly articulated nation state. I can see all sorts of problems with this (England versus the UK, immigrant populations, trade rules and ties, a weakening economy and so on). But I don't see a problem with the general proposition that the UK should be a nation state: that's a choice (or better put, an aspiration). It's not my choice but for many people it is their choice and at that point logical argument is less important.

The idea of the modern nation state as an absolute is somewhat more radical than anything the population would tolerate. It is next to impossible to achieve and should be dismissed out of hand. So we are left to discuss the extent of cooperation and its pros and cons. This is where we get stuck, for there are comparatively few on the Brexity side who are willing to face those trade offs. Instead of having an honest discussion, we hear about imaginary technology, imaginary paragraphs, or greatly distorted versions of the world as it is.

Simply saying you want a more independent nation state, or you want sovereignty, is useless unless you can articulate what it means and how it is different (never mind better) from what we already have. A person may want this or that, and they aren't forced to discuss it any further - but what are they doing here? It's a forum.

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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 16 Jul 2019, 12:02pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:The UK is a nation state.


An inner tube is an inner tube. Until it is filled with air under pressure. What we are talking about is the shape of that nation state and which way it is going. It's a hugely complicated subject that has been hugely over-simplified. You and I agree on what that entity called the UK should look like. Others don't. But their feelings, attitudes and sense of identity are equally valid to ours.

BTW, the UK isn't wholly a nation state, just for clarity. It's an independent state with a dominant national culture which we call British: the nationalities of the UK are not homogeneous. That makes Brexit a fairly urgent and desperate project (but understandable) if you are trying to protect the homogeneity of the UK.
I have two doctors, my left leg and my right leg. (G. M. Trevelyan)
PS I always wondered why the YHA HQ was called Trevelyan House. :)

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 16 Jul 2019, 12:54pm

horizon wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:The UK is a nation state.


An inner tube is an inner tube. Until it is filled with air under pressure. What we are talking about is the shape of that nation state and which way it is going. It's a hugely complicated subject that has been hugely over-simplified. You and I agree on what that entity called the UK should look like. Others don't. But their feelings, attitudes and sense of identity are equally valid to ours.

BTW, the UK isn't wholly a nation state, just for clarity. It's an independent state with a dominant national culture which we call British: the nationalities of the UK are not homogeneous. That makes Brexit a fairly urgent and desperate project (but understandable) if you are trying to protect the homogeneity of the UK.

An inner tube?
Poor example. Fill it with hot air and its still an inner tube.

Homogenous. The UK?
Not in the least.(although more so than latterly, that's the modern consequence of mass travel and media).
I would suggest none of the Nation States of Europe are homogenous.
France, Spain, Belgium Germany and more all have significant regional differences and even languages.

Good reasons to throw away opportunities for a new generation is what I want.
They are not only sadly lacking but totally lacking,IMV,
Some true passion from those that want isolation.

Passion is good.
Devil's advocates seldom have it in full measure.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 16 Jul 2019, 12:56pm

The real reason for Brexit?

Here's real earnings over the past 150+ years. There has been no comparable drop in real earnings since industrialisation. It's pretty amazing Brexit is all that has happened.

Capture1.JPG


And adjusted right up to date. Real earnings are still lower than pre-crash, over a decade on:

Capture.JPG


The xenophobia, nationalism and nostalgia are a symptom of this economic reality.

Just my view, of course.

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al_yrpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby al_yrpal » 16 Jul 2019, 1:25pm

I and millions of others voted leave without any notion of nostalgia, nationalism or xenophobia. This is just another sick sneering attempt to denigrate people with the majority view. Thank goodness for the common sense of our friend Horizon in this echo chamber riven with angst and spite.

Al
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661-Pete
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby 661-Pete » 16 Jul 2019, 1:31pm

windmiller wrote:This awareness has awakened a sense of dormant patriotism in England which is most often sneered at by the left as right wing hatred of other nations or even fascism.
Patriotism, in the right setting and to the right extent, is no doubt a Good Thing - however you are possibly familiar with the following quote:
Dr Samuel Johnson wrote:Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
So was Johnson (no relation, I sincerely hope!) a hardline leftie? If so, news to me!
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).