** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 46784
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 21 Aug 2019, 8:11pm

I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.
Mick F. Cornwall

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 2987
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Aug 2019, 8:15pm

mercalia wrote:What puzzles me about the stupidity & gross dishonesty of the EU's attitude to the backstop is that should the UK leave without a deal the EU will have to square the circle of the GFA and its single market protection. Why oh why it cant get real and solve that now and stop thinking it can offload the problem onto the UK beggars belief and shows how foolish, calculating and manipulative the EU really is. All its grand ideas are a load of <expletive deleted>. It is no better thana tyrannical regime using the norms of democracy to get its way - and it wants to have the UK as a friend after Brexit? heh not on your nelly. if we do leave without a deal I would want Boris to do his damnest to pay them back.

Well it looks as if the "tyrranical EU" would move on the backstop if the UK find a solution in 30 days.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674

Why don't you get on the phone to the PM with your ideas? He needs some fresh input.

Personally I think the EU have been pretty fair measured, patient and consistent- unlike the DUP etc.
Certainly more patient than I would have been.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 2987
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Aug 2019, 8:18pm

Mick F wrote:I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.


The backstop was rejected by Westminster, yes?
So it's a UK problem.

Borders are by their nature two sided things.
I learned it in kindergarten.

Mike Sales
Posts: 3416
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 21 Aug 2019, 8:20pm

Mick F wrote:I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.


That is understandable, isn't it?
The EU is a customs union, with common, agreed standards to facilitate trade. Goods which do not meet those standards are not allowed into the market.
This is obvious and well known and must have been apparent before the referendum. The leave side campaigned saying that everything would be easy and straightforward. It now appears that they had no plan to deal with this difficulty.

mercalia
Posts: 11504
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 21 Aug 2019, 8:23pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
mercalia wrote:What puzzles me about the stupidity & gross dishonesty of the EU's attitude to the backstop is that should the UK leave without a deal the EU will have to square the circle of the GFA and its single market protection. Why oh why it cant get real and solve that now and stop thinking it can offload the problem onto the UK beggars belief and shows how foolish, calculating and manipulative the EU really is. All its grand ideas are a load of <expletive deleted>. It is no better thana tyrannical regime using the norms of democracy to get its way - and it wants to have the UK as a friend after Brexit? heh not on your nelly. if we do leave without a deal I would want Boris to do his damnest to pay them back.

Well it looks as if the "tyrranical EU" would move on the backstop if the UK find a solution in 30 days.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674

Why don't you get on the phone to the PM with your ideas? He needs some fresh input.

Personally I think the EU have been pretty fair measured, patient and consistent- unlike the DUP etc.
Certainly more patient than I would have been.



You have been taken in by the EU polish I think. You've got it all wrong. It is a EU problem, just as much ours, which THEY will have to solve if there is a no deal Brexit. THEY wont be able to pass the buck to the UK. You want to make it soley our problem it isnt, rather it its a joint problem but the EU is refusing to see it that way. The 30 days thing just reinforces what I said above. The EU is run by deluded bureacrats on a power trip thinking they can dominate matters ( they may be able to, but that dont change the nature of their actions, ie not the behaviour of a democratic org)
Last edited by mercalia on 21 Aug 2019, 8:25pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4033
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 21 Aug 2019, 8:24pm

Mick F wrote:I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.

The GFA was signed by the UK, Ireland, and several parties in Northern Ireland. It's not an EU problem. It's a problem for everybody.

You think the UK is happy? Not from what I can see. The latest wheeze from the UK government is to threaten no border at all - rather bizarre, coming from the same people who told us that we had to leave the EU to control our borders.

Psamathe
Posts: 10601
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 21 Aug 2019, 8:25pm

Mick F wrote:I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.

Why is it the EU's problem? The EU are quite happy. The EU have compromised and agreed a deal with the UK Government (took time but they reached agreement). Boris Johnson was also happy with that agreement (he voted in support of the agreement).

UK will be obliged to control the border or other non-EU countries will likely bring a case against the UK. When we switch to WTO rules we will be required to compl with those rules.

Ian

pete75
Posts: 11810
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 21 Aug 2019, 8:27pm

Mick F wrote:I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.


Rubbish . It's the UK wanting to leave the eu that has caused the problem. It's a problem created by the UK.Tyical leaver, Ypu and folk who think like you have created a problem but you try to make out it's caused by someone else.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4033
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 21 Aug 2019, 8:29pm

mercalia wrote:The EU is run by deluded bureacrats on a power trip thinking they can dominate matters

What evidence do you have that the EU leaders (you call them bureaucrats as if that's a bad thing) are deluded? Now, would you like me to present evidence that our own leaders are deluded? It'll be easier for me to find evidence for the latter, as almost every utterance from our government contradicts the one that went before.

mercalia
Posts: 11504
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 21 Aug 2019, 8:30pm

bovlomov wrote:
Mick F wrote:I said hundreds of pages back? that the Irish border is an EU problem.
It's the EU who aren't happy, not UK.

The GFA was signed by the UK, Ireland, and several parties in Northern Ireland. It's not an EU problem. It's a problem for everybody.

You think the UK is happy? Not from what I can see. The latest wheeze from the UK government is to threaten no border at all - rather bizarre, coming from the same people who told us that we had to leave the EU to control our borders.


Well the EU have made it their business? Butt out then EU start dealing with the UK as if there was no GFA or problem, then there would be no backstop insistance. The EU would then be presumably happy with borders in Ireland ( stuff the Irish ). But then where does the mantra of the EU having kept the peace in Europe since WW2 end up - in the rubbish bin?

Psamathe
Posts: 10601
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 21 Aug 2019, 8:31pm

mercalia wrote:.....
You have been taken in by the EU polish I think. You've got it all wrong. It is a EU problem, just as much ours, which THEY will have to solve if there is a no deal Brexit. THEY wont be able to pass the buck to the UK. You want to make it soley our problem it isnt, rather it its a joint problem but the EU is refusing to see it that way. The 30 days thing just reinforces what I said above. The EU is run by deluded bureacrats on a power trip thinking they can dominate matters ( they may be able to, but that dont change the nature of their actions, ie not the behaviour of a democratic org)

The 30 days raised by Merkel is just an illustration about what the backstop is and isn't. It isn't what is going to happen. It is a fallback in the event no adequate alternative solution is found before the UK breaks with the EU i.e. after the end of the transition agreement subject to any trade deal negotiated.

It is entirely the UKs choice to leave the single market and switch to WTO rules. And when the UK switches to WTO rules we have to be treated in the same way as any 3rd party country trading under WTO rules, We chose WTO so we chose to be trading with the EU under WTO rules.

Ian

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 2987
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Aug 2019, 8:31pm

mercalia wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
mercalia wrote:What puzzles me about the stupidity & gross dishonesty of the EU's attitude to the backstop is that should the UK leave without a deal the EU will have to square the circle of the GFA and its single market protection. Why oh why it cant get real and solve that now and stop thinking it can offload the problem onto the UK beggars belief and shows how foolish, calculating and manipulative the EU really is. All its grand ideas are a load of <expletive deleted>. It is no better thana tyrannical regime using the norms of democracy to get its way - and it wants to have the UK as a friend after Brexit? heh not on your nelly. if we do leave without a deal I would want Boris to do his damnest to pay them back.

Well it looks as if the "tyrranical EU" would move on the backstop if the UK find a solution in 30 days.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674

Why don't you get on the phone to the PM with your ideas? He needs some fresh input.

Personally I think the EU have been pretty fair measured, patient and consistent- unlike the DUP etc.
Certainly more patient than I would have been.



You have been taken in by the EU polish I think. You've got it all wrong. It is a EU problem, just as much ours, which THEY will have to solve if there is a no deal Brexit. THEY wont be able to pass the buck to the UK. You want to make it soley our problem it isnt, rather it its a joint problem but the EU is refusing to see it that way. The 30 days thing just reinforces what I said above. The EU is run by deluded bureacrats on a power trip thinking they can dominate matters ( they may be able to, but that dont change the nature of their actions, ie not the behaviour of a democratic org)

As I said, you solve it because you are passionate about it.
And I am tired of it all -the petty populist small minded Nationalism.
The white cliffs drivel from Johnson today.


I would remain in the EU -problem solved.

If we don't then just reinstate the border. Problem also solved - for myself.

User avatar
bovlomov
Posts: 4033
Joined: 5 Apr 2007, 7:45am
Contact:

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby bovlomov » 21 Aug 2019, 8:52pm

mercalia wrote:Butt out then EU start dealing with the UK as if there was no GFA or problem, then there would be no backstop insistance.

For the millionth time - the backstop was proposed by the UK government to get the UK government out of a hole that the UK government had dug itself. The obvious solution would have been to put a border in the Irish Sea - something I believe the EU was prepared to tolerate. The UK government found that unacceptable only because of its dependence on the DUP.

But imagine there was no GFA. Do you think a border would be OK? Do you think ruining the lives of people either side would be OK? If not, do you propose there be no border and no mechanism to deal with the cross border traffic? Would it satisfy the WTO? Or do you think there needs to be some sort of technological solution? What? That's the problem that all parties face.

Take no notice of Johnson. He's just using the issue to pass blame to the EU (to save him jail). It's about much more than the GFA.

reohn2
Posts: 36326
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 21 Aug 2019, 9:08pm

Psamathe,PQ,Bov.
When you've been banging you head against a wall,it ain't half nice when you stop :) .
Chaps you're wasting your time trying to talk sence to those how won't listen to sense and reason :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

stu1102
Posts: 108
Joined: 24 Jun 2013, 8:38pm
Location: Beeston, Nottignham

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby stu1102 » 21 Aug 2019, 9:16pm

It’s all clear to me now regarding leaving the EU

The EU is undemocratic and we shouldn’t have to pay for all their elections.

We can have transitional arrangements without agreeing what we are transitioning to.

Immigrants have been taking our jobs, and are also work-shy and stealing public services


Free trade is good and we must leave all our free trade agreements to achieve it.

Referendums on leaving unions are good for the UK, but not for Scotland or Northern Ireland.

Everyone knew what Brexit they voted for, but the Tory leadership candidates couldn’t agree what that actually was.

No-deal Brexit is simultaneously no problem at all, and so bad that merely threatening it will make the EU do whatever we want

The more Brexiters insist there are solutions to the Irish border issue the less the backstop should be a problem for them

All courtesy of various twitter inputs