mercalia wrote:Psamathe wrote:mercalia wrote:
I was not saying ONLY the EU would be culable - it would joint culpability. Not as it is at the moment ONLY the UK. Your paraphrase is one version. Another might be, we are leaving, if you want to interfere in Anglo-Irish politics then you will have to cooperate with the UK over the border and stop insisting on protecting your single market as if the GFA didnt exist.
I suspect "culpability" would depend on what the UK sought and if it sought something compatible with an open border the reasons for the negotiations failing. For example, at the moment our Brex-iteer politicians are talking about a Canada style trade deal - which (it is reported) is incompatible with open borders on Ireland. So if we only ask for something that requires a hard border then we can hardly blame the EU when a hard border becomes necessary.
The EU is a Single Market and the EU has to protect it's single market (apparently German manufacturer tell their government they are worried about a hard Brexit but they also tell their Government they are more worried about maintaining the integrity of the Single Market (which is more important to them). UK Brexit politicians seem to be singing about the wonders of hormone fed beef and chlorine washed chicken and UK moving in that direction is going to ensure the EU cannot allow trade treaties that allow open borders. Much of the outcome of the trade negotiations is in the hards of the UK or rather in the hands of an over-entitled public school boy with no experience of negotiations.
well I think your characterisation of the UK panting for chlorinated chicken is over cooked. If the EU is so adamant about its single market it should come clean and say that the GFA is of only secondary importance which will have to be sacrificed. It needs to stop thinking it can have it both ways at the UKs expence? My take is that the alternative measures soln using electronics is the only way ahead but is clearly a work in progress so protecting the single market with a borderless Ireland is some thing that will only work to a degree at the start, but will improve over time. But the EU insists on a soln that works 100% from day one. Thats the impossible demand thats causing all the trouble. Which is why politicians not bureacrats should have been in the driving seat in the EU., who would then have recommended amendments to EU rules. The fact of the GFA with its constructive ambiguity suggests a unique soln is needed rather than some thing from the rule book?
So Leaving the EU with no GFA considered is just a technical matter; with the GFA is a political matter.
It's not the UK panting for chlorine washed chicken, it's the Hard-Brexit supporting UK politicians (e.g. ERG).
It's not just the EU that would be requiring a hard border to protect the single market. Under WTO rules we would also need one.Ignoring the WTO Rules requirement for a hard border, the EU has a single market and member states will quite understandably not allow that single market to be destroyed because the UK has chosen to leave it. The Single Market is a massive benefit to member states and losing it would big impact - so it always was going to be a big problem from a trade/borders perspective and it was the Leave campaigners that really didn't understand the EU that decided the UK would be getting everything it wished without problems.
As for the GFA I don't think I understand enough about the massive complexities to argue the case. But I did hear one fascinating interview with an N Irish politician where she was discussing how in NI the border (or lack of it) is about far more than trade but the crucial matter of "identity". She was explaining that the absence of a border allows republicans to feel they have a degree of identity with the south. So add a border even with technology checks away from the physical border and it would still have a massive impact on the perceived "identity" felt by republicans. In effect it would be dragging them back into the Union where at the moment they have a degree of feeling of being part of the south. This has nothing to do with the EU.