** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
mercalia
Posts: 12363
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Sep 2019, 4:55pm

broadway wrote:
mercalia wrote:
broadway wrote:

Does Ireland not have a say?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -by-issues


yes but the problem is really with the EU?

A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.


Thats only a problem if you insist it has to work 100% rather than as a work in progress? What degree of porousness would be acceptable? The EU says none?

The report should have said there are issues with all the scenarios, including those that envisage the backstop . That would have been a fairer summary of the complete situation, rather than to make out the UKs current position is somehow untenable.


That's not what the Irish are saying.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... onvenience




Simon Coveney is just peeved at the thought of the UK standing up for its self & causing trouble for South Ireland, how dare the British ruffle our feathers, he thinks, and spoil our tax haven game ( viz Apple )

Psamathe
Posts: 10812
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 2 Sep 2019, 5:23pm

mercalia wrote:
broadway wrote:

Does Ireland not have a say?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -by-issues


yes but the problem is really with the EU?

A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.


Thats only a problem if you insist it has to work 100% rather than as a work in progress? What degree of porousness would be acceptable? The EU says none?

The report should have said there are issues with all the scenarios, including those that envisage the backstop . That would have been a fairer summary of the complete situation, rather than to make out the UKs current position is somehow untenable.

If the UK went for the Norway option there is no issue about "porousness" and seems to me to be a solution without issues.

Particularly given what many prominent supporters of brexit were saying before the EU Referendum
e.g
Aaron Banks, the Head of Leave.EU wrote:Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK

Daniel Hannan, Conservative MEP wrote:Norway gets a better deal than Britain currently does

Nigel Farage before the referendum wrote:Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing

etc.

Ian

Oldjohnw
Posts: 2893
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 2 Sep 2019, 5:52pm

But we'd still have to talk to those European persons. Whereas with no deal everything would just fall out of heaven. England would suddenly become self sufficient in everything.
John

mercalia
Posts: 12363
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 2 Sep 2019, 6:13pm

Psamathe wrote:
mercalia wrote:
broadway wrote:

Does Ireland not have a say?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -by-issues


yes but the problem is really with the EU?

A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.


Thats only a problem if you insist it has to work 100% rather than as a work in progress? What degree of porousness would be acceptable? The EU says none?

The report should have said there are issues with all the scenarios, including those that envisage the backstop . That would have been a fairer summary of the complete situation, rather than to make out the UKs current position is somehow untenable.

If the UK went for the Norway option there is no issue about "porousness" and seems to me to be a solution without issues.

Particularly given what many prominent supporters of brexit were saying before the EU Referendum
e.g
Aaron Banks, the Head of Leave.EU wrote:Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK

Daniel Hannan, Conservative MEP wrote:Norway gets a better deal than Britain currently does

Nigel Farage before the referendum wrote:Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing

etc.

Ian



I mentioned a few pages back the ex Iceland PM suggestion, that Temporary EEA membership is the best route out of Europe to give us time to get all sorted out, to our and only our satisfaction, no question then of getting trapped by the EU. We can leave when we want?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-britain-like-iceland-will-thrive-outside-the-eu/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BLND%20%2020190822%20%20%20JO&utm_content=BLND%20%2020190822%20%20%20JO+CID_bc379906161a3e06e20df8a50bc59988&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_term=predicted

Psamathe
Posts: 10812
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 2 Sep 2019, 6:32pm

mercalia wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
mercalia wrote:
yes but the problem is really with the EU?

A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.


Thats only a problem if you insist it has to work 100% rather than as a work in progress? What degree of porousness would be acceptable? The EU says none?

The report should have said there are issues with all the scenarios, including those that envisage the backstop . That would have been a fairer summary of the complete situation, rather than to make out the UKs current position is somehow untenable.

If the UK went for the Norway option there is no issue about "porousness" and seems to me to be a solution without issues.

Particularly given what many prominent supporters of brexit were saying before the EU Referendum
e.g
Aaron Banks, the Head of Leave.EU wrote:Increasingly, the Norway option looks the best for the UK

Daniel Hannan, Conservative MEP wrote:Norway gets a better deal than Britain currently does

Nigel Farage before the referendum wrote:Wouldn’t it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They’re rich. They’re happy. They’re self-governing

etc.

Ian



I mentioned a few pages back the ex Iceland PM suggestion, that Temporary EEA membership is the best route out of Europe to give us time to get all sorted out, to our and only our satisfaction, no question then of getting trapped by the EU. We can leave when we want?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/why-britain-like-iceland-will-thrive-outside-the-eu/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BLND%20%2020190822%20%20%20JO&utm_content=BLND%20%2020190822%20%20%20JO+CID_bc379906161a3e06e20df8a50bc59988&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_term=predicted

My understanding is that joining the EEA would still involve negotiation with the EU who would then need some safeguards about the Irish border should we leave at some point. EFTA membership alone would not be that much help (too many exclusions).

Ian

User avatar
georgew
Posts: 1506
Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 4:23pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby georgew » 2 Sep 2019, 9:10pm

mercalia wrote:
yes but the problem is really with the EU?

A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. [b]There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.


Thats only a problem if you insist it has to work 100% rather than as a work in progress? What degree of porousness would be acceptable? The EU says none? .......................




I just want you to know that I support you in your argument that it is possible to be just a little bit pregnant.

User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 11219
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 3 Sep 2019, 12:56am

Hi,
If I got this right Blair says a GE will give Tories majority?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

Psamathe
Posts: 10812
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 3 Sep 2019, 1:21am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
If I got this right Blair says a GE will give Tories majority?

Blair has identified what Piffle is trying to do: blame Labour for stopping Brexit, present himself as the true Martyr to Brexit and thereby kill the Brexit party (or limit the damage), etc.

Two Labour MPs on Newsnight seemed to be on the same message, avoid the bear trap and they'd love an election but not until No-Deal has been stopped at end-Oct. Probably Corbyn will fail to see the trap and ignore all his advisors and fall into the trap and allow Piffle's No-Deal to happen.

Interesting though how all the talking heads (Conservative and Labour oriented ones) were saying that as No 10 are upping the anti, so they have backed themselves into a corner and if Piffle asks for an election and Labour say "not until after end-Oct when we have an extension", No 10 could be a bit stuck in their corner. Having fostered division, encouraged splits and created their own minority (by sacking loyal MPs) to force it to look like they have been forced to a General Election, so Labour could destroy their plans but just saying "yes, but later". I suspect Corbyn is not bright enough to notice and it would be out of character for him to listen to others.

Ian

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9980
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Sep 2019, 6:46am

broadway wrote:
mercalia wrote:It might be interesting to do a what if and suppose that the GFA requirements are left to the period when the trade talks are being discussed. We are in a transitional period where nothing changes. we have left but follow EU rules so the borderlessness is intact. We can extend this period by mutual consent. The EU has to struggle with squaring its single market with the GFA. It cant demand the UK stays in the status quo as we have left the EU, we are a third country? How would it proceeed? Bullishly assert the primacy of the single market? Then Ireland has been abandoned? I suspect the GFA would have to be reopened. Its not as if all the violence has ended in the the North? The orignal grouse that ignited it all has gone viz that the Unionists tried to exclude the Siin Fein supporters from power in the North. Very messy, but some times life is like that, thats the reality that the EU wants to avoid at the UKs cost



Does Ireland not have a say?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -by-issues




Apparently not.

It has already been clearly stated that the Government feels Northern Ireland is not capable of dealing with Brexit and that they will be enforcing central Government

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9980
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Sep 2019, 6:55am

There needs to be a final answer.... and the Election is not it

The Brexit PArty is a classic reason why. A corrupt leader with a proven failure to represent his constituents, dodgy financial dealings, a massive threat to NHS and refuses to publish a manifesto

Prior to Brexit, this would have led to demands for an investigation and laughed at

Yet because everything and anything is acceptable so long as they are rabidly pro- Brexit has destroyed any chance of a sensible or meaningful election

User avatar
Spinners
Posts: 1677
Joined: 6 Dec 2008, 6:58pm
Location: Port Talbot

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Spinners » 3 Sep 2019, 8:01am

Is there something wrong with the TV broadcaster companies who still try to interview our politians and pundits during outside broadcasts from Westminster?

At this difficult time for our country it would be nice to actually hear our politians explain their thoughts and/or debate alongside others but that's all but impossible when they are being drowned out by the boorish behaviour of protesters in the background who are about as tuneful as the 'rag and bone' man when he comes down our alleyway.
Cycling UK Life Member
PBP Ancien (2007)

kwackers
Posts: 14054
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 3 Sep 2019, 9:03am

Spinners wrote:but that's all but impossible when they are being drowned out by the boorish behaviour of protesters in the background who are about as tuneful as the 'rag and bone' man when he comes down our alleyway.

I like him, he amuses and entertains.
I even dug him out on YouTube to see him in action.

broadway
Posts: 776
Joined: 9 Mar 2010, 1:49pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby broadway » 3 Sep 2019, 11:02am

Cunobelin wrote:
broadway wrote:
mercalia wrote:It might be interesting to do a what if and suppose that the GFA requirements are left to the period when the trade talks are being discussed. We are in a transitional period where nothing changes. we have left but follow EU rules so the borderlessness is intact. We can extend this period by mutual consent. The EU has to struggle with squaring its single market with the GFA. It cant demand the UK stays in the status quo as we have left the EU, we are a third country? How would it proceeed? Bullishly assert the primacy of the single market? Then Ireland has been abandoned? I suspect the GFA would have to be reopened. Its not as if all the violence has ended in the the North? The orignal grouse that ignited it all has gone viz that the Unionists tried to exclude the Siin Fein supporters from power in the North. Very messy, but some times life is like that, thats the reality that the EU wants to avoid at the UKs cost



Does Ireland not have a say?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -by-issues




Apparently not.

It has already been clearly stated that the Government feels Northern Ireland is not capable of dealing with Brexit and that they will be enforcing central Government


I was talking about the Republic, however Mercalia seems to think they should not have a say either.

Psamathe
Posts: 10812
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 3 Sep 2019, 11:02am

Has Piffle got to the point where we just can't trust anything he says (or was that point passed some time ago) e.g. despite continuous claims from PM about the progress he's making with EU towards a deal, reported today
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/03/brussels-baffled-by-boris-johnsons-brexit-progress-claims wrote:Brussels baffled by Boris Johnson's Brexit progress claims

PM says deal outline is nearly ready but EU says no backstop alternatives have been tabled

Brussels has responded with bafflement at Boris Johnson’s claims of progress in the Brexit talks, with EU officials warning that discussions are going nowhere.

The prime minister and his cabinet have insisted that the outlines of a deal are in the making and that attempts by MPs to rule out a no-deal exit will kill that positive momentum.

But officials said that more than two weeks after Johnson’s meeting with the German chancellor Angela Merkel, no alternatives to the backstop had been tabled and that there had instead been a renewed clash over Brussels’ need for an immediately legally operable solution for Ireland.


And what does it say about our political system when much of what the PM says is completely untrue?

Ian

kwackers
Posts: 14054
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby kwackers » 3 Sep 2019, 11:55am

Psamathe wrote:And what does it say about our political system when much of what the PM says is completely untrue?

Ian

It says we're getting ready for our merger with America.