** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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Flinders
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Flinders » 6 Sep 2019, 1:59pm

kwackers wrote:If there'd been a decent majority it wouldn't have been a problem either way.
The referendum should have had a supermajority clause (as should anything that moves us away from a status quo).

No sensible person can possible think a decision like this which is so well balanced could possibly play out well.
Such a clause would have stopped it until the majority was enough to carry it with fewer issues.

Exactly. A major change should always be 51% or more of those eligible to vote, or 2/3 of those actually voting.

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 6 Sep 2019, 2:10pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi again, So we have come to the point where sod all gets done, we keep on paying a subscription to a club most of us don't want to belong to, we must do everything that unelected nobody's tell us to do, for as long as the say?????????????
Sounds like an unreasonable contract in law, which is really unlawful!

Sounds like the monarchy. I didn't have you down as a republican before! :lol:
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 6 Sep 2019, 2:42pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi again, So we have come to the point where sod all gets done, we keep on paying a subscription to a club most of us don't want to belong to, we must do everything that unelected nobody's tell us to do, for as long as the say?????????????
Sounds like an unreasonable contract in law, which is really unlawful!
The sane option has never been contemplated by the E.U., that being a root & branch reform to make it fit for a purpose other than being a leech to bleed Jo & Joanne Public.
If the GFA is such a problem, with a Border Issue, then maybe handing over the poisoned chalice to Dublin would solve the problem, after all it was politicians who created the artificial border, dividing a single country into two warring factions?
We hate colonialism & imperialism, so let's act as mature adults and admit that it should never have happened?
Just think how much more difficult the problem would be if the 7 Sinn Fein M.P.'s actually took their seats at Westminster? Sure they would have a problem with the Oath of Allegiance, but such an Oath hasn't stopped a number of M.P.'s from breaking promises that they have made! TTFN MM


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RickH
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby RickH » 6 Sep 2019, 2:43pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi again, So we have come to the point where sod all gets done, we keep on paying a subscription to a club most of us don't want to belong to, we must do everything that unelected nobody's tell us to do, for as long as the say?????????????

Are you talking about the current Conservative Party leadership here? It sounds an awful lot like it! :twisted:

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 6 Sep 2019, 2:47pm

Vorpal wrote:
pete75 wrote:Democracy works like this here. Six friends deciding where to go out. One says the Red Lion for a pint, one says the Marquis for a pint, another the Crown for a pint, the fourth the Nags for a pint and the fifth and sixth say Starbucks for a coffee. So they all end up having coffee despite the majority, two thirds, wanting beer.

While that is a great perspective, and a metaphor that I find suitable, there is one significant difference. If the friends decide beer is more important, they can break into two groups, one to go to a pub, and one to go get coffee. Or they can maybe find a pub that serves both. If the two stops are in near proximity, they might even be able to go get their drinks, then sit together in an outdoor seating area and drink their coffees and beers together.

On the issue of Brexit, there is no version that allows us to have it both ways. Remainers cannot stay in the EU while the UK leaves, and should the UK remain, Leavers cannot leave without moving to another land. The pub isn't serving coffee. and the coffee shop isnæt serving beer. Furthermore, once the friends decide to go to Starbucks, they will never see another beer.


I was referring to the posts about electing constituency MPs.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 6 Sep 2019, 2:50pm

merseymouth wrote:Hi again, So we have come to the point where sod all gets done, we keep on paying a subscription to a club most of us don't want to belong to, we must do everything that unelected nobody's tell us to do, for as long as the say?????????????
Sounds like an unreasonable contract in law, which is really unlawful!
The sane option has never been contemplated by the E.U., that being a root & branch reform to make it fit for a purpose other than being a leech to bleed Jo & Joanne Public.
If the GFA is such a problem, with a Border Issue, then maybe handing over the poisoned chalice to Dublin would solve the problem, after all it was politicians who created the artificial border, dividing a single country into two warring factions?
We hate colonialism & imperialism, so let's act as mature adults and admit that it should never have happened?
Just think how much more difficult the problem would be if the 7 Sinn Fein M.P.'s actually took their seats at Westminster? Sure they would have a problem with the Oath of Allegiance, but such an Oath hasn't stopped a number of M.P.'s from breaking promises that they have made! TTFN MM


Do the Sinn Fein "mps" get paid - I would assume not? In fact Standing as an MP should require they sit at Westminster - if they wont, they lose their MP status and some one else is elected eg the next person in the votes count? Why should we let these so-and-sos mess up our political system?

Mike Sales
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 6 Sep 2019, 2:54pm

mercalia wrote:Do the Sinn Fein "mps" get paid - I would assume not? In fact Standing as an MP should require they sit at Westminster - if they wont, they lose their MP status and some one else is elected eg the next person in the votes count? Why should we let these so-and-sos mess up our political system?


I imagine that their constituents vote for them in full knowledge that they will refuse to sit. Their voters presumably share Sinn Fein's objectives.

Did Farage's voters know he would never turn up at the European Parliament?

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 6 Sep 2019, 3:00pm

Mike Sales wrote:
mercalia wrote:Do the Sinn Fein "mps" get paid - I would assume not? In fact Standing as an MP should require they sit at Westminster - if they wont, they lose their MP status and some one else is elected eg the next person in the votes count? Why should we let these so-and-sos mess up our political system?


I imagine that their constituents vote for them in full knowledge that they will refuse to sit. Their voters presumably share Sinn Fein's objectives.

Did Farage's voters know he would never turn up at the European Parliament?


well I think voting for such a person should be equivalent to deliberately messing up the voting paper?

if you take a job but dont turn up for work you dont get paid and you get the sack?

Mike Sales
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 6 Sep 2019, 3:07pm

mercalia wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
mercalia wrote:Do the Sinn Fein "mps" get paid - I would assume not? In fact Standing as an MP should require they sit at Westminster - if they wont, they lose their MP status and some one else is elected eg the next person in the votes count? Why should we let these so-and-sos mess up our political system?


I imagine that their constituents vote for them in full knowledge that they will refuse to sit. Their voters presumably share Sinn Fein's objectives.

Did Farage's voters know he would never turn up at the European Parliament?


well I think voting for such a person should be equivalent to deliberately messing up the voting paper?

if you take a job but dont turn up for work you dont get paid and you get the sack?


I am inclined to think that these M.P.s are representing their constituents in the way those constituents chose to be represented, as is the voters' democratic right. It is not good to restrict their right to choose.
Perhaps it is akin to jurors' right to acquit against the judge's direction.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 6 Sep 2019, 3:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 6 Sep 2019, 3:09pm

mercalia wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
mercalia wrote:Do the Sinn Fein "mps" get paid - I would assume not? In fact Standing as an MP should require they sit at Westminster - if they wont, they lose their MP status and some one else is elected eg the next person in the votes count? Why should we let these so-and-sos mess up our political system?


I imagine that their constituents vote for them in full knowledge that they will refuse to sit. Their voters presumably share Sinn Fein's objectives.

Did Farage's voters know he would never turn up at the European Parliament?


well I think voting for such a person should be equivalent to deliberately messing up the voting paper?

if you take a job but dont turn up for work you dont get paid and you get the sack?


Some would have it that most of an MP's work is dealing with constituency issues and constituents problems not just turning up in parliament when the whips tell them to and voting how the whips say.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Debs » 6 Sep 2019, 3:27pm

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Pastychomper
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Pastychomper » 6 Sep 2019, 4:02pm

Flinders wrote:Exactly. A major change should always be 51% or more of those eligible to vote, or 2/3 of those actually voting.

I'm inclined to agree with that. If only John Major and Gordon Brown had thought that way, we wouldn't be in this mess.
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 6 Sep 2019, 4:13pm

Pastychomper wrote:
Flinders wrote:Exactly. A major change should always be 51% or more of those eligible to vote, or 2/3 of those actually voting.

I'm inclined to agree with that. If only John Major and Gordon Brown had thought that way, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Hey now, fair's fair: no letting Margaret "affirm the European identity" Thatcher and Tony "new stage in the process" Blair off of that hook!
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Vorpal
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 6 Sep 2019, 4:20pm

Psamathe wrote:Whilst technically I agree, I think there are compromises available that in most ways achieve this e.g. "the Norway Option" where we [UK] have left the EU as per the referendum result and yet we remain close enough to retain most of the positive elements of EU membership. I increasingly believe this is maybe the only way to bring the UK back together.

I don't have a problem with taking the Norwegian approach. However, joining the EEA/EFTA, requires agreement of the other members, and there is no guarantee the the UK will get that. I don't know if this has been discussed 'under the table', but as I understand it, they cannot discuss it openly whilst the UK is still an EU member. I doubt that Norway would object, as they have always been close trading allies, and there are a number of (high monetary value) joint British-Norwegian ventures in North Sea oil & wind energy.
But the other countries? And what happens to the relationship between Iceland and the UK, when the UK is no longer bound by EU fisheries policy? Maybe Iceland would approve UK EEA membership, if the UK agreed to continue to be bound by EU fisheries policy? But that further dashes the hopes of folks who wanted out because of the fisheries policies.
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merseymouth
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby merseymouth » 6 Sep 2019, 4:25pm

Hi Kwackers, Well I'm happy hat you are happy with your Costco subscription, bu how would you feel if you where made to pay for it against your will?
Bit like me being forced to have AA or RAC Breakdown Membership, no car, no need! In the past I have found myself trapped by a firm taking money from my bank by establishing a continuous subscription. It is quite common these days, so I prefer to pay by cheque, that way hey only have a single mandate. I set trading standards onto them, as they failed to appreciate the taping by them for training purposes could work against them, silly people.
So the majority who voted don't wish to maintain membership, so that should be the outcome!
With regards to the Sinn Fein M.P.'s, they didn't swear the oath, they haven't taken their seats and so the constituents of those areas have no representation in Parliament. Furthermore whilst Sinn Fein Members of the Stormont Assembly took their seats, so they must have agreed to some lawful conditions, they must be getting paid for no work as that assembly is still in suspension! Yet more unrepresented constituents? Such is politics.
We're starting to make the Italian & Belgian Parliaments look good :lol: :lol: :lol: . IGICB MM

*Hi Vorpal, Yet more reason to hate Heath, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown et al, trading away other peoples family silver without compensating then! Such is the way of our betters, sic.