** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 14 Sep 2019, 12:26pm

Mike Sales wrote:
windmiller wrote:The only newspaper I read is the Guardian, when I manage to steal it from a person at work. I like the sports section the best. The political/comedy pages can be amusing.

Regarding book views by "textpert experts", I much prefer to physically hold a book and browse through it for 10 minutes to get a general feel for it, and make up my own mind about it rather than lazily allowing another to do it for me.


Have you read The Victorians ? Or even browsed it for 10minutes?
I quote reviews by two well known writers from the right of the spectrum to ridicule your idea that it is only the extreme left who see Tree-Frog's book as pitiful.

No and No with a probably future No. I predict that I would find the book reheated dry toast.

Mogg wrote the book with the intention of triggering the left, more accomplished historical authors than himself will also be triggered by default regardless of their voting habits.

Worst book I have read in the last 10 years was Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class by the patronizing clueless Owen Jones, closely followed by
Righteous Indignation: Excuse Me While I Save the World, Andrew Breibart, both ends of the spectrum, basically both shallow evil detritius.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Sep 2019, 12:30pm

I agree with the comments about emotional rather than rational, but I'd put a slightly different emphasis.

For me, I think it's about stories. The Leave campaign had a more compelling narrative: Britain ( England perhaps more accurately) stands unique amongst nations, faced down Nazism alone and indeed is at its very best when alone. We are being dragged down by scheming eurocrats and need to take back control to assert our true destiny.

It's a compelling story but has the drawback of being wholly false.

For continental Europeans, they have an equally, perhaps actually even more compelling narrative:

Europe for centuries tore itself apart in wars, culminating in the horrors of Nazism. Now united for the first time in the EU, peace reigns across the continent and brings prosperity in its wake.

This is simplistic, but at least based in fact.

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 14 Sep 2019, 12:40pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:I agree with the comments about emotional rather than rational, but I'd put a slightly different emphasis.

For me, I think it's about stories. The Leave campaign had a more compelling narrative: Britain ( England perhaps more accurately) stands unique amongst nations, faced down Nazism alone and indeed is at its very best when alone. We are being dragged down by scheming eurocrats and need to take back control to assert our true destiny.

It's a compelling story but has the drawback of being wholly false.

For continental Europeans, they have an equally, perhaps actually even more compelling narrative:

Europe for centuries tore itself apart in wars, culminating in the horrors of Nazism. Now united for the first time in the EU, peace reigns across the continent and brings prosperity in its wake.

This is simplistic, but at least based in fact.


well not in the balkans it didnt until Nato stepped in? And there is peace in Europe not because of the EU but because the Age of the Great Powers ended with WW2 with the rise of the Age of the Superpowers? The real argument for the EU is combine together to be able to standup to this new reaility

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Sep 2019, 12:41pm

Mike Sales wrote:
windmiller wrote:The only newspaper I read is the Guardian, when I manage to steal it from a person at work. I like the sports section the best. The political/comedy pages can be amusing.

Regarding book views by "textpert experts", I much prefer to physically hold a book and browse through it for 10 minutes to get a general feel for it, and make up my own mind about it rather than lazily allowing another to do it for me.


Have you read The Victorians ? Or even browsed it for 10minutes?
I quote reviews by two well known writers from the right of the spectrum to ridicule your idea that it is only the extreme left who see Tree-Frog's book as pitiful.

As you say, e.g. The Times described it as "staggeringly silly piece of history" and in another review "The Victorians by Jacob Rees-Mogg review — bad, boring and mind‑bogglingly banal" (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-victorians-by-jacob-rees-mogg-review-bad-boring-and-mind-bogglingly-banal-3wlg2stts)

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Sep 2019, 12:47pm

slowster wrote:It seems to me that the reasons for MickF's wanting to leave the EU are, for want of better words, 'emotional' as opposed to 'rational'. It's tempting to dismiss a choice made on emotional grounds rather than rational ones, but often the biggest decisions of our lives are emotional choices rather than rational ones, e.g. marriage, a home purchase, a choice of work or career etc.

Conversely, I think that the reasons for Germany in particular wanting to be in the EU, and happily paying the lion's share of its budget and giving up its cherished strong Deutschmark, are mainly emotional ones, i.e. EU and european identity offers a very appealing alternative to simply identifying as German, given Germany's history over the last 80 years.

Just as much as Germans want that close relationship and ties with other european countries, MickF and many others do not want it.

Moreover, I think Germany's desire for it has led to harmful consequences. Because of the legacy of WW2, not only has Germany felt it necessary to be the biggest funder of the EU, many other countries have also expected Germany to pay. This has resulted in bad political decision making and distorted the political direction and economies of other countries. This was most apparent at the height of Greece's economic troubles, when it became clear that many greek people and their government took the view that Germany 'owed them' and should be prepared to bail them out. If Germany had not allowed Greece to join the Euro, had not in all probability turned a blind eye to Greece lying about its finances, had not ignored the warning signs of excessive greek government borrowing because of the low interest it had access to as a result of Euro membership, then Greece would have had to take a different direction, and would probably be in a far better condition today.

You can see the German/Greek/EU relationship both from a rational perspective, e.g. looking at the economic statistics, but also from an emotional one. A relationship between two supposedly equal nation states was distorted by the financial dependence of one on the other, e.g. like a family member that cannot live within their means and constantly asks brothers and sisters to help them out - in giving money the siblings don't actually make things better: it just continues and increases the dependency and dysfunction of that family member.

Some of the dynamics that underpin the EU appear unhealthy, especially viewed from an emotional perspective, and are likely to lead to more bad decisions.

I think MickF has the most coherent argument for leaving the EU that I've seen expressed by a Leave voter.

The perspective is interesting.
Perhaps I could suggest that even an emotional decision has to be based on some kind of input or knowledge?
Otherwise it's just empty headed dross.

The important factor then is where does that knowledge, bias or gut feeling come from?
Clearly in the UK we have seen a EU hating campaign carried out across large sections of the powerful right wing press.
The EU often made, unfairly IMV, scapegoats for the failings of Westminster, the Global (particularly USA) financial system collapse and perhaps most significant of all, these last Tory ruled years.

The broader point about Germany and it's emotional attachment to the EU project has some credence.
Yet one must ask why is it that the German economy is so successful??
I would have my own suggestions.

The EU is broader and diverser than one might glean from your post.
My attachment to being an EU citizen is however also partly emotional, although it has benefitted me personally in many rather different ways.
I would suggest that it has also benefitted Mickf, but he has remained to blinkered (or too out of touch) to see it.
I do not find it the "most coherent argument" I have to say.
Future generations will tell us who was right.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Sep 2019, 12:50pm

Mick F wrote:What surprises me, is that you are asking the same question time and time again.

I actually don't really care one way or another, but I never wanted to join a united Europe in the first place. I wouldn't die in a ditch over this ........... as I've said lots of times .....................

We had a referendum, and I voted and I still stand by my vote.

............. but I'm repeating myself.

You raise a point that is no longer valid.

If you expect Parliament to enact the wishes of the electorate (big "if") then the electorate expressed its wishes in 2016 which was to leave. But subsequently the electorate expressed its updated/revised wishes in 2017, expressing different wishes through the MPs it chose to represent (i.e. the electorate chose MPs who were against "No-Deal" to represent them). People with particular ideologies cannot cherry pick elements of any party manifesto and claim a mandate. We (the electorate) chose a group of MPs to represent us and that is what they are doing and they were selected to undertake this role AFTER the 2016 referendum (so the "mandate" is superseded).

Many Leave supporters go on about "democratic decisions made" but ignore the revised democratic decision that has been made after the 2016 referendum.

Ian

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Sep 2019, 1:53pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:What surprises me, is that you are asking the same question time and time again.

I actually don't really care one way or another, but I never wanted to join a united Europe in the first place. I wouldn't die in a ditch over this ........... as I've said lots of times .....................

We had a referendum, and I voted and I still stand by my vote.

............. but I'm repeating myself.


And contradicting yourself too!
No I'm not! :evil:
No contradictions from me in the slightest.

I say I wouldn't die if we remained. I'm not thumping a table about wanting Out.
You and I were given a black and white question. I answered Leave.

Had there been a set of carefully worded questions, there might have been a "prefer" option, and I might have gone for that. Given a choice for a percentage feeling about it, I'm a 60/40 sort of guy preferring Out rather than In.

We were asked the question, and I (plus a small majority of the voting public) voted Out.
If you were a Remain voter, you were in a minority.
Mick F. Cornwall

djnotts
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 14 Sep 2019, 2:25pm

"Europe for centuries tore itself apart in wars, culminating in the horrors of Nazism. Now united for the first time in the EU, peace reigns across the continent and brings prosperity in its wake."

And that is what so angers the Leave-leaders and paymasters. They want conflict, do not baulk at outright war and do not consider Nazism a horror. Many of those who voted as they were told by such capitalists share the views.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Sep 2019, 2:55pm

Mick F wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Mick F wrote:What surprises me, is that you are asking the same question time and time again.

I actually don't really care one way or another, but I never wanted to join a united Europe in the first place. I wouldn't die in a ditch over this ........... as I've said lots of times .....................

We had a referendum, and I voted and I still stand by my vote.

............. but I'm repeating myself.


And contradicting yourself too!
No I'm not! :evil:
No contradictions from me in the slightest.

I say I wouldn't die if we remained. I'm not thumping a table about wanting Out.
You and I were given a black and white question. I answered Leave.
.......

But more recently than that we have been given another question and the more recent decision from the electorate must supersede the older and more out of date decision. More recently we have chosen people to represent us and that is what they are doing at the moment. If we chose the wrong people to represent us because we don't like the representing they are doing then it's a different matter but the same arguments apply to the 2016 Referendum. The more recent poll always applies.

There is no justification for insisting an earlier decision be upheld over a more recent decision just because some people like the older decision and not the more recent decision.

i.e. "The will of the people as expressed in 2016" or "the "will of the people expressed in 2017" ?

Ian

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 14 Sep 2019, 4:16pm

You can have as many referenda as you like, but some people will always reject one that goes "the wrong way". That rogue Farage said he might, for example. I'd not expect any better from him. I'm more shocked that those former champions of democracy, the Liberals, have stooped that low. If this is democracy, with folk only respecting the "right" decisions, I'm out.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 14 Sep 2019, 5:07pm

pwa wrote:You can have as many referenda as you like, but some people will always reject one that goes "the wrong way". That rogue Farage said he might, for example. I'd not expect any better from him. I'm more shocked that those former champions of democracy, the Liberals, have stooped that low. If this is democracy, with folk only respecting the "right" decisions, I'm out.

I see nothing wrong with the Lib Dems' "we'll revoke Article 50" as they have no power at the moment so what they are saying is, come next election vote for us and we'll revoke Article 50. So were the Lib Dems to be a majority in the coming General Election the electorate would have expressed their choice.

But I don't think a General Election is the best way to bring the country back together because it will be muddling many issues e.g. some won't vote for Corbyn but support his stance on leaving the EU (whatever that stance might be come GE), some might want to Leave but could never vote for Boris' making the rich richer policies, etc.

A referendum on the available choices will cause some to declare "un-democratic" but we've supposedly had two votes so far (a referendum and a General Election from which some ideologically driven MPs declare a mandate when if there was a mandate it was for No-Deal and "undecided").

Brexit-eer MPs cannot declare they have a mandate from the 2017 General Election without admitting the vote was about leaving the EU and yet they declare to have another vote on leaving would be un-democratic (whilst at the same time trying to claim we've had another vote the results of which they are twisting to their own ends).

Ian

slowster
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby slowster » 14 Sep 2019, 5:11pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Perhaps I could suggest that even an emotional decision has to be based on some kind of input or knowledge?
Otherwise it's just empty headed dross.

The important factor then is where does that knowledge, bias or gut feeling come from?
Clearly in the UK we have seen a EU hating campaign carried out across large sections of the powerful right wing press.
The EU often made, unfairly IMV, scapegoats for the failings of Westminster, the Global (particularly USA) financial system collapse and perhaps most significant of all, these last Tory ruled years.

As far as I am aware MickF has never tried to give detailed reasons for why he feels the way he does about EU membership. I agree that an emotional decision will be influenced and determined by external factors, but you have jumped from that to inferring that those factors are the negative reporting of the EU by segments of the UK media, and implicitly concluding that such an emotional decision in this case is likely to be based on rationally flawed arguments.

It's possible to have lived through the last 30 odd years and have formed a justifiably negative view of EU membership. You would not necessarily need to know all the ins and outs of the Greek financial crisis, including all the causes as well as the consequences, to come to a conclusion that there were some serious fundamental flaws in the EU. One can decide for oneself that there is something extremely wrong without needing to be versed in the details of economic theory and how the Euro works.

Going back further in recent history, I can recall the celebrations when the Euro was introduced, and the self-congratulatory enthusiasm of european politicians at the time. That seemed rather alien to me, as someone far away from it all in the UK, and I think I instinctively felt that the Euro was not quite as wonderful as it was being portrayed by politicians, i.e. I was a little bit sceptical because I tend to default to the view that if something looks too good to be true, it probably isn't. At the time senior members of the Bundesbank were very critical of aspects of the Euro, but I did not understand the economic theory that lay behind their criticism. The short timespan between the introduction of the Euro and the Eurozone crisis bore out the economic criticisms in spades.

In many respects the adoption of the Euro mirrors Brexit: both decisions based on factors other than narrow economic ones, and taken despite warnings by 'experts', i.e. economists, that there would be negative/damaging consequences.

Going back even further there has been huge change and upheaval in Germany and the former Eastern Bloc countries that have joined the EU: the fall of the Berlin Wall and reunification of Germany, the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet/Russian control over the Eastern Bloc countries which have since joined the EU. Those changes have resulted in the modern history of those countries and their people being markedly different from the UK, which in turn was probably a huge factor in their decision to adopt a common currency, i.e. at this point in history they are on a different cultural/political trajectory to the UK and have a different outlook. So for those former Eastern Bloc countries, EU and Euro (and Nato) membership is fundamental to their sense of who they are and their countries' future.

It's understandable that the UK, which has had a very different experience of modern history compared with those countries, would feel differently about its EU membership, and I think Switzerland is similar: another country which was far less affected by WW2 and by the Cold War, and which has refused to join the EU.

PDQ Mobile wrote:The broader point about Germany and it's emotional attachment to the EU project has some credence.
Yet one must ask why is it that the German economy is so successful?.

There are obviously multiple reasons, many of which stem from what happened in Germany after WW2, but in recent history the Euro was a major factor in Germany's economic success. The Euro effectively made German exports much cheaper than they would have been compared with if Germany had still had the Deutschmark (and conversely increased the price of products exported by countries which had had much weaker currencies before they adopted the Euro). Economists warned that the Euro would result in these sort of imbalances between the northern and southern Euro members, but their warnings were largely ignored by politicians.

roubaixtuesday
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby roubaixtuesday » 14 Sep 2019, 5:13pm

Mick F wrote:No contradictions from me in the slightest.



Sure.

Commenting on the subject for years is shows how little you care.

Espousing it as a reason to vote for politicians you claim to disagree with on pretty much everything else shows how little you care.

Telling us over and over again how you dislike the EU shows how little you care.

Not a contradiction in sight.

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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 14 Sep 2019, 5:14pm

djnotts wrote:"Europe for centuries tore itself apart in wars, culminating in the horrors of Nazism. Now united for the first time in the EU, peace reigns across the continent and brings prosperity in its wake."

And that is what so angers the Leave-leaders and paymasters. They want conflict, do not baulk at outright war and do not consider Nazism a horror. Many of those who voted as they were told by such capitalists share the views.


Here is a central issue with Brexit: many used the referendum as a vehicle to express their unpleasant and even dangerous opinions and wants, including those you mention. Xenophobia, racism, jingoism and rabid nationalism bordering on fascism have all been made very visible (and emboldened) by this referendum.

Of course, not all who voted leave are such people with such motives for so-voting. If we consider MickF, for example, he expresses none of those unpleasant motives for his vote. However, he and those less rabid leavers remain culpable to a degree, since they have effectively supported a movement towards the far right, along with those highly exploitative oligarchs who wish for a UK without regulations to rein-in their excesses, including the war-mongering, financial shenanigans and degradation of the environment and society at large.

MickF and Co will say, "But I did not want or vote for that". I'm sure they don't want that. But it's now plain as day that that is effectively what they voted for. They compounded the issue when they also voted for Frage & Co in the EU elections, thinking they were voting for but one policy (leave) but actually motivating and voting in Bojoklown and his gang of proto-totalitarians, as they seek power by a wholesale move of the Tory party to the far right.

Will these naive leave-voting fellows now notice that they have empowered a gang of proto-fascists not keen on the rule of law or Parliamentary oversight? Alas, many are still utterly blinkerd and think this is all just about leaving the EU. It's about a great deal more than that now. It always was, really.

Cugel

pwa
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pwa » 14 Sep 2019, 5:48pm

Cugel wrote:
djnotts wrote:"Europe for centuries tore itself apart in wars, culminating in the horrors of Nazism. Now united for the first time in the EU, peace reigns across the continent and brings prosperity in its wake."

And that is what so angers the Leave-leaders and paymasters. They want conflict, do not baulk at outright war and do not consider Nazism a horror. Many of those who voted as they were told by such capitalists share the views.


Here is a central issue with Brexit: many used the referendum as a vehicle to express their unpleasant and even dangerous opinions and wants, including those you mention. Xenophobia, racism, jingoism and rabid nationalism bordering on fascism have all been made very visible (and emboldened) by this referendum.

Of course, not all who voted leave are such people with such motives for so-voting. If we consider MickF, for example, he expresses none of those unpleasant motives for his vote. However, he and those less rabid leavers remain culpable to a degree, since they have effectively supported a movement towards the far right, along with those highly exploitative oligarchs who wish for a UK without regulations to rein-in their excesses, including the war-mongering, financial shenanigans and degradation of the environment and society at large.

MickF and Co will say, "But I did not want or vote for that". I'm sure they don't want that. But it's now plain as day that that is effectively what they voted for. They compounded the issue when they also voted for Frage & Co in the EU elections, thinking they were voting for but one policy (leave) but actually motivating and voting in Bojoklown and his gang of proto-totalitarians, as they seek power by a wholesale move of the Tory party to the far right.

Will these naive leave-voting fellows now notice that they have empowered a gang of proto-fascists not keen on the rule of law or Parliamentary oversight? Alas, many are still utterly blinkerd and think this is all just about leaving the EU. It's about a great deal more than that now. It always was, really.

Cugel

And will the well-meaning folk who rejected the result of the 2016 vote consider the long-term implications of their abandonment of democracy? That concerns me more than whether we are In or Out. The thinness of some people's democratic principles has been laid bare and that disappoints me. My country is not the bastion of democracy that I thought it was.