** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[bovlomov]

And will the well-meaning folk who rejected the result of the 2016 vote consider the long-term implications of their abandonment of democracy?

In my view, the calling of a referendum was already an abandonment of democracy. If you think it wasn't, then there's no doubt that democracy was abandoned during the process. So I ask you, what are the long-term implications of that abandonment of democracy? of the lengths the state went to to cover up the crimes? of the CPS and police's reluctance - due to 'political sensitivities - to pursue the crimes?

I'm well meaning. The referendum was nothing like democracy.

[pwa]

And will the well-meaning folk who rejected the result of the 2016 vote consider the long-term implications of their abandonment of democracy?

In my view, the calling of a referendum was already an abandonment of democracy. If you think it wasn't, then there's no doubt that democracy was abandoned during the process. So I ask you, what are the long-term implications of that abandonment of democracy? of the lengths the state went to to cover up the crimes? of the CPS and police's reluctance - due to 'political sensitivities - to pursue the crimes?

I'm well meaning. The referendum was nothing like democracy.

I think plenty of folk were set on not accepting the referendum result from the start, and any excuse that came along was good enough for them. I was disappointed that May did not recognise the closeness of the result by seeking a close alliance with the EU through a customs union, etc, which would have been justifiable in terms of democracy. I was even more disappointed with the Liberals' complete rejection of the vote, which for me has put them beneath contempt. I was again disappointed to find MPs of all persuasions not converging around a compromise that recognised the closeness of the vote. And I was bemused by naive folk who thought that a referendum could have been avoided altogether, presumably on the basis that if you don't ask people what they want you don't have to face them wanting something you yourself don't want. I care much less about whether we end up In or Out than I do about this failure of democratic process.

[bovlomov]

And will the well-meaning folk who rejected the result of the 2016 vote consider the long-term implications of their abandonment of democracy?

In my view, the calling of a referendum was already an abandonment of democracy. If you think it wasn't, then there's no doubt that democracy was abandoned during the process. So I ask you, what are the long-term implications of that abandonment of democracy? of the lengths the state went to to cover up the crimes? of the CPS and police's reluctance - due to 'political sensitivities - to pursue the crimes?

I'm well meaning. The referendum was nothing like democracy.

I think plenty of folk were set on not accepting the referendum result from the start, and any excuse that came along was good enough for them. I was disappointed that May did not recognise the closeness of the result by seeking a close alliance with the EU through a customs union, etc, which would have been justifiable in terms of democracy. I was even more disappointed with the Liberals' complete rejection of the vote, which for me has put them beneath contempt. I was again disappointed to find MPs of all persuasions not converging around a compromise that recognised the closeness of the vote. And I was bemused by naive folk who thought that a referendum could have been avoided altogether, presumably on the basis that if you don't ask people what they want you don't have to face them wanting something you yourself don't want. I care much less about whether we end up In or Out than I do about this failure of democratic process.

You haven't responded to my points about the process or the criminality. Are they not important to you?

[roubaixtuesday]

I think plenty of folk were set on not accepting the referendum result from the start, and any excuse that came along was good enough for them.

This is what is known as democracy.

If you don't like the direction the country is taking, you have the freedom to campaign for change.

Whether or not I agree with them, anyone wanting to campaign to revoke the result absolutely has the right to attempt such an outcome by democratic means.

The only singularly undemocratic action taken to date is Johnson's attempt to rule without tbe consent of parliament.

[Mike Sales]

A shadowy global operation involving big data, billionaire friends of Trump and the disparate forces of the Leave campaign influenced the result of the EU referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

[al_yrpal]

We entered the Common Market because of a confirmatory Referendum vote open to everyone because it was such an important thing to do. Its fitting that there was a Referendum on whether we should stay when it was evident that the EU has transmogrified itself into something unrecognisable and incompatible with the original purpose. The parliamentry system is a convenient method of running the country, but the peoples wishes via referenda overide it. We voted to leave and that is what should happen. Our parliamentry representatives job is to fulfill the peoples wishes on the best terms possible but it is now evident that too many of them dont believe in real democracy. Hopefully they will face the wrath of the majority at some point and no longer continue to enjoy their priveliged positions.

Lets get it done and get on with rebuilding Britain.

Al

[Mick F]

Yes.

[roubaixtuesday]

Lets get it done and get on with rebuilding Britain.

Al

It will not be "done", whatever happens next.

Europe is a physical and political reality, and we will spend a minimum of a decade negotiating our relationship with it.

[661-Pete]

The parliamentry system is a convenient method of running the country, but the peoples wishes via referenda overide it.

"Convenient"??? Aha, so you would do away with Parliament altogether. Good luck to you, Mr Fawkes! I believe the ground underneath Westminster is riddled with secret tunnels, so you should have plenty of space to stow your "threescore barrels of powder below"...

Our parliamentry representatives job is to fulfill the peoples wishes....

It would be, if we knew what the "people's wishes" were in 2019, as opposed to 2016. You don't know, any more than I do. If you really want to respect "the people's wishes", let's hold another referendum to find out, shall we?

[Mick F]

Lets have a referendum each and every year. (Pick a subject)

Then at least we'll know what the people want.

[pwa]

In my view, the calling of a referendum was already an abandonment of democracy. If you think it wasn't, then there's no doubt that democracy was abandoned during the process. So I ask you, what are the long-term implications of that abandonment of democracy? of the lengths the state went to to cover up the crimes? of the CPS and police's reluctance - due to 'political sensitivities - to pursue the crimes?

I'm well meaning. The referendum was nothing like democracy.

I think plenty of folk were set on not accepting the referendum result from the start, and any excuse that came along was good enough for them. I was disappointed that May did not recognise the closeness of the result by seeking a close alliance with the EU through a customs union, etc, which would have been justifiable in terms of democracy. I was even more disappointed with the Liberals' complete rejection of the vote, which for me has put them beneath contempt. I was again disappointed to find MPs of all persuasions not converging around a compromise that recognised the closeness of the vote. And I was bemused by naive folk who thought that a referendum could have been avoided altogether, presumably on the basis that if you don't ask people what they want you don't have to face them wanting something you yourself don't want. I care much less about whether we end up In or Out than I do about this failure of democratic process.

You haven't responded to my points about the process or the criminality. Are they not important to you?

The referendum was inevitable. If Cameron had shied away from it he would have just been putting it off. The failure of mainstream parties like Labour and the Tories to propose a non-EU existence for us was leaving that ground for the distinctly iffy UKIP. You think it would have just gone away if no referendum had been offered? No, it would have festered and pressure would have grown.

The lead up to the referendum was corrupt, not least because the Government used my tax payer's money to send me literature supporting one side of the debate. So much for a level playing field. Then day after day the Beeb reported the Government's line as if it were not just one side if the debate, but a neutral impartial view. Bent as hell. Personally, I thought Boris was crap, Farage very much in the background, and Gove not a lot better. I don't think any of them were very effective. I think a lot of people will have voted Leave in spite of them rather than because of them. Yes it was an imperfect process. But I bet you would have accepted the result quietly enough if it had gone the way you wanted. I was ready to be magnanimous in defeat. I thought things worked that way. Well I know better now.

[bovlomov]

Lets get it done and get on with rebuilding Britain.l

From the wreckage of Brexit?

it is now evident that too many of them dont believe in real democracy.

We'd have left by now if the Brexiters in the Tory Party hadn't voted against leaving. Did they vote against leaving because they are anti-democratic? Most Remainers in the Tory Party voted to leave with the deal. Were they being anti-democratic?

Your narrative doesn't hold water.

[roubaixtuesday]

The referendum was inevitable. If Cameron had shied away from it he would have just been putting it off. The failure of mainstream parties like Labour and the Tories to propose a non-EU existence for us was leaving that ground for the distinctly iffy UKIP. You think it would have just gone away if no referendum had been offered? No, it would have festered and pressure would have grown.

I completely disagree.

According to all polling EU membership was not seen as a major issue prior to the ref, expect of course inside the Tory party.

[661-Pete]

You can have as many referenda as you like, but some people will always reject one that goes "the wrong way". That rogue Farage said he might, for example. I'd not expect any better from him. I'm more shocked that those former champions of democracy, the Liberals, have stooped that low. If this is democracy, with folk only respecting the "right" decisions, I'm out.

How so? The LibDems have put this pledge in their election manifesto - just that. If the LibDems get voted into office (I grant you, a bit unlikely), then wouldn't the election result be in effect a referendum approving their stated policy? To Remain in the EU, that is?

The fact that their manifesto pledge runs counter to a seriously toxic and flawed referendum result obtained in 2016 is of no consequence. This is what they're offering the people now. If you don't like it don't vote for them.

[edit]Or do you mean this Liberal party? The pro-Brex**it one?

[bovlomov]

I think plenty of folk were set on not accepting the referendum result from the start, and any excuse that came along was good enough for them. I was disappointed that May did not recognise the closeness of the result by seeking a close alliance with the EU through a customs union, etc, which would have been justifiable in terms of democracy. I was even more disappointed with the Liberals' complete rejection of the vote, which for me has put them beneath contempt. I was again disappointed to find MPs of all persuasions not converging around a compromise that recognised the closeness of the vote. And I was bemused by naive folk who thought that a referendum could have been avoided altogether, presumably on the basis that if you don't ask people what they want you don't have to face them wanting something you yourself don't want. I care much less about whether we end up In or Out than I do about this failure of democratic process.

You haven't responded to my points about the process or the criminality. Are they not important to you?

The referendum was inevitable. If Cameron had shied away from it he would have just been putting it off. The failure of mainstream parties like Labour and the Tories to propose a non-EU existence for us was leaving that ground for the distinctly iffy UKIP. You think it would have just gone away if no referendum had been offered? No, it would have festered and pressure would have grown.

The lead up to the referendum was corrupt, not least because the Government used my tax payer's money to send me literature supporting one side of the debate. So much for a level playing field. Then day after day the Beeb reported the Government's line as if it were not just one side if the debate, but a neutral impartial view. Bent as hell. Personally, I thought Boris was crap, Farage very much in the background, and Gove not a lot better. I don't think any of them were very effective. I think a lot of people will have voted Leave in spite of them rather than because of them. Yes it was an imperfect process. But I bet you would have accepted the result quietly enough if it had gone the way you wanted. I was ready to be magnanimous in defeat. I thought things worked that way. Well I know better now.

Imperfect? That's all?

Widespread criminality, data abuse, money laundering, hostile foreign influence, unprecedented campaigning abuses. That's what happened. Of course no one thinks they were influenced, but that rather flies in the face of all psychological research and the experience of the whole global advertising industry.

You think the government corruptly promoted Remain? Is there any evidence? Has there been a court case? Has anyone brought a private case? The difference is, we know for sure that the leave campaigns were corrupt, and we know how. There's evidence. There have been rulings. They weren't imperfect. They were illegal.

This isn't to do with me or to do with Remainers. It is to do with the law.