** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Sep 2019, 9:08pm

roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
And try again with empathy.


And try again without parroting previous comments.


You're making absolutely no attempt to understand the lives of the people you are condemning out of hand.

Apply some thought to the motivations and situations of those moving, and not moving to take insecure low paid work.

How's that?


Yeah - they'd sooner sit on their backsides , smoking Embassy Regal, drinking Stella and watching daytime TV than go out to work.Anyone who's read a few editions of Viz comic knows how folk in the North East live. :wink:

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 16 Sep 2019, 9:25pm

The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems


Yes, the Lib Dems are arguing, with straight, earnest faces, that cancelling Brexit would “resolve the issue” and allow British politics to move on and focus on other things.

This is silly, about as silly as the No Dealers who claim that leaving without an agreement will allow us to move on from obsessing about the EU and talk about other things.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/the-lib-dems-brexit-unicorn/

jgurney
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby jgurney » 16 Sep 2019, 9:53pm

pete75 wrote:Yeah - they'd sooner sit on their backsides , smoking Embassy Regal, drinking Stella and watching daytime TV than go out to work.Anyone who's read a few editions of Viz comic knows how folk in the North East live. :wink:


I think there was a genuine issue, in towns like Redcar, of some young men having, and being encouraged to have, unrealistic attitudes and expectations which harmed their work prospects. The previous availability of well-paid work which did not require academic qualifications and could be taken up by school leavers had left its mark, which lingered after those jobs went away. There was a problem of a significant number of boys leaving school at 16 aspiring towards the jobs their fathers and grandfathers had done, and nothing else. They would not take the jobs that were available with their qualifications because those were regarded as women's work (retail, light industry, office, etc) , but then were resentful that 'the lasses got all the jobs'. They could not get the better-paid jobs which were available as those required post-school qualifications, which they were not pursuing, and regarded with scorn. The consequences of their typically having less money than their female counterparts, the distinct opposite of the traditional basis of local youth culture, led to more resentment as well as to insecure relationships.

I vividly recall, in Redcar in the 1990's, having to rescue my stepson from his grandfather angrily berating him for still being in school at 16. At first I was just incredulous then felt I really should intervene as my father in law became increasingly heated and critical of his grandson for "thinking you're so posh ... still at school ... should be out at work..." (etc, etc). He was not alone in holding such attitudes and it is not wholly surprising that they had some influence.

Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 10:02pm

Relevant to EU workers taking jobs UK workers could have taken/done
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/09/lack-of-migrant-workers-left-food-rotting-in-uk-fields-last-year-data-reveals wrote: Lack of migrant workers left food rotting in UK fields last year, data reveals

Exclusive: Brexit fears and falling pound left fruit and vegetable farms short of more than 4,000 workers, with senior MPs warning of a crisis

Fruit and vegetable farms across the UK were left short of thousands of migrant workers in 2017, leaving some produce to rot in the fields and farmers suffering big losses.


Ian

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 16 Sep 2019, 10:16pm

mercalia wrote:The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems

Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 16 Sep 2019, 10:28pm

jgurney wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
pete75 wrote: If someone can move from Tallinn to Surfleet for work then someone could also move there from Redcar to take the job.


You have a family in Redcar. Your children are in school


Quite. Most EU migrant workers going to Lincs. were young and single[...]

That doesn't seem right to me, living a few miles from the Lincs border. I'm sure not all of the older people and families speaking Balto-Slavic languages there are locals who have learned them and decided to use them to throw us incomers!

Many unemployed young people from Redcar have in fact migrated for work, but those I know have gone to London, Manchester, etc, in roles like nursing, retail management and plumbing, not farm work in Lincs.

OK, but what about other unemployed people? Is it really a case of being too scared to make little Johnny and Jenny start a new school and to try to build a new "support network" or stand on one's own, or maybe, just possibly, it's partly that the migrant-hate preached by many politicians and news outlets is also discouraging in-nation migration too? When I moved to the west of England, I was told to go back where I came from!
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Psamathe
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 10:30pm

mjr wrote:.....
I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...

I agree that it won't be the end of it but (also agreeing with you) I suspect that revoking and remaining will bring about a return to normality and heal division a lot sooner than No Deal. Revoke & remain after a public vote (General Election) choosing that path will cause an outcry from the more extreme Leavers but those are the politicians currently telling us people now just want it to be done. In 1 year time revoke & remain will be past and life will be back to normal whereas in 1 year with No-Deal we'll be paying more for loads of stuff (inflation), can't travel as freely for European holidays, maybe recession, jobs lost, economy suffering, etc., etc. And despite most economists predicting such effects how long until I'm accused of being "Project Fear".

Ian

pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 16 Sep 2019, 10:34pm

jgurney wrote:
pete75 wrote:Yeah - they'd sooner sit on their backsides , smoking Embassy Regal, drinking Stella and watching daytime TV than go out to work.Anyone who's read a few editions of Viz comic knows how folk in the North East live. :wink:


I think there was a genuine issue, in towns like Redcar, of some young men having, and being encouraged to have, unrealistic attitudes and expectations which harmed their work prospects. The previous availability of well-paid work which did not require academic qualifications and could be taken up by school leavers had left its mark, which lingered after those jobs went away. There was a problem of a significant number of boys leaving school at 16 aspiring towards the jobs their fathers and grandfathers had done, and nothing else. They would not take the jobs that were available with their qualifications because those were regarded as women's work (retail, light industry, office, etc) , but then were resentful that 'the lasses got all the jobs'. They could not get the better-paid jobs which were available as those required post-school qualifications, which they were not pursuing, and regarded with scorn. The consequences of their typically having less money than their female counterparts, the distinct opposite of the traditional basis of local youth culture, led to more resentment as well as to insecure relationships.

I vividly recall, in Redcar in the 1990's, having to rescue my stepson from his grandfather angrily berating him for still being in school at 16. At first I was just incredulous then felt I really should intervene as my father in law became increasingly heated and critical of his grandson for "thinking you're so posh ... still at school ... should be out at work..." (etc, etc). He was not alone in holding such attitudes and it is not wholly surprising that they had some influence.


That fits in with something I was told almost 30 years ago. I was at a meeting of housing professionals not long after the riots on the Meadowell estate near Newcastle. There was a guy there from North Tyneside housing. I asked him about the riots. He knew the estate well because some years earlier he'd managed it. His view was the trouble was a direct result of the decline in industry during the eighties. Prior to that the area had a low crime rate and very little trouble. After there was high youth unemployment. He said much of the trouble was the result of boredom and youth alienation.
The lack of jobs also had another effect. Lads who had been cocky and violent at school continued in the same way after school. When they went into a job or apprenticeship, working with men, they usually learned they weren't as tough and brave as they thought and changed their ways. WIth no job this learning process didn't happen. Well that was his theory and it sounds more than plausible.

jgurney
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby jgurney » 16 Sep 2019, 10:36pm

mercalia wrote: the Lib Dems are arguing .. that cancelling Brexit would “resolve the issue” and allow British politics to move on and focus on other things. This is silly,


No-one else seems to have come up with anything which seems to me more likely to get any closer to any resolution. 3 years ago 48% wanted that, while unquantified numbers wanted various other outcomes which had little in common beyond all involving leaving the EU on one or other set of terms. No one specific solution seems to have a majority of supporters (hence there is such a problem) but I suspect revoking article 50 has more than any other. (I'm sure I recall reading of supporters of various 'leave' options saying they would rather stay in the EU than leave on terms other than those they wanted).

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 16 Sep 2019, 10:38pm

Mick F wrote:I have no issues in co-operation, no issues in trade and easy accesses, or living and working etc. Passport controls and work visas please.

Ewwwww! Passport controls and work visas? You want an elite telling us where we can go and what jobs we can do? I don't! I want them phased out as much as we can do without disrupting things. No wonder I do not recognise your vision for this country if it's that much of an authoritarian nanny state.
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horizon
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby horizon » 17 Sep 2019, 12:52am

jgurney wrote:
I think there was a genuine issue, in towns like Redcar, of some young men having, and being encouraged to have, unrealistic attitudes and expectations which harmed their work prospects. The previous availability of well-paid work which did not require academic qualifications and could be taken up by school leavers had left its mark, which lingered after those jobs went away. There was a problem of a significant number of boys leaving school at 16 aspiring towards the jobs their fathers and grandfathers had done, and nothing else.


What is extraordinary is that we have so lightly thrown away the willingness of succeeding generations to follow their fathers and grandfathers into the hardest and most dangerous of work - iron and steel, coal mining and metalwork. Industries like these provided long-term secure employment without qualifications. You cannot just close these industries down overnight without destroying the social and work culture that goes with them and indeed were vital to them. I think the EU, the US and now the UK has to look at how they encourage competition without such rapid change that communities cannot keep pace. I'm not sure if the Armed Forces Covenant is a recent idea or not but we need something similar for whole swathes of workers who have given their lives (sometimes literally) so that the rest of us live in comfort.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 17 Sep 2019, 7:08am

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems

Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...


The smug arrogant LIb Dems have played right into the hands of Cummings by proclaiming that democracy can be cancelled. They are so naive and puffed up with dubious morality that they can't even imagine that their Brexit nightmare will be like tea and cake with Mary Poppins, compared to the Freddy Krueger special home brew that they will be water boarded with for shafting the majority of voters.

Mike Sales
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mike Sales » 17 Sep 2019, 7:16am

windmiller wrote:The smug arrogant LIb Dems have played right into the hands of Cummings by proclaiming that democracy can be cancelled. They are so naive and puffed up with dubious morality that they can't even imagine that their Brexit nightmare will be like tea and cake with Mary Poppins, compared to the Freddy Krueger special home brew that they will be water boarded with for shafting the majority of voters.


It requires a peculiar sort of doublethink to believe that voting cancels democracy.

It gives the electorate another chance to express their will, or to change their mind.
I suspect you are terrified that now we know more about Brexit, we have thought better of it.

windmiller
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby windmiller » 17 Sep 2019, 7:27am

Mike Sales wrote:
windmiller wrote:The smug arrogant LIb Dems have played right into the hands of Cummings by proclaiming that democracy can be cancelled. They are so naive and puffed up with dubious morality that they can't even imagine that their Brexit nightmare will be like tea and cake with Mary Poppins, compared to the Freddy Krueger special home brew that they will be water boarded with for shafting the majority of voters.


It requires a peculiar sort of doublethink to believe that voting cancels democracy.


it requires a peculiar sort of doublestink to believe that the majority of voters can be ignored and cancelled by a genuine democracy

RRSODL
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby RRSODL » 17 Sep 2019, 7:30am

mjr wrote:
mercalia wrote:The Fantasy that is the Liberal-Dems

Is there any point replying to this gibberish when you won't reply to questions?

The Liberal Democrats are one of the few parties not offering a unicorn-pooping-rainbows Brexit, unlike the Conservatives, Labour, BxP and probably others.

I agree that simply revoking won't be the end of it, but it could be the beginning of the end...


And where democracy falls in all this? Parliament has not mandate to revoke article 50.

If the Liberal Democrats want to revoke article 50 then I'd say let them campaign for a revoke of article 50 on the next General Elections and if they win by overall majority then they would have a mandate to revoke article 50 and any supporter of brexit that believes in democracy should respect the decision.